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In a perfect simulation with no outside influence, there's no distinction between "real" and "simulated" - the simulated world is real, and the outside world is

In a perfect simulation with no outside influence, there's no distinction between "real" and "simulated" - the simulated world is real, and the outside world is not observable (effectively doesn't exist). So unless the "entity" doing the simulation interferes with it in some way, it simply doesn't matter.

friend_and_foe 3y ago
Interestingly, if there is a way to detect that we are in a simulation, it means that there is some side channel by which information can pass between the simulation and it's bare metal, the world in which it is being run. This would mean that the simulation itself is a phenomenon inside this base reality and so is very real and also that we can learn things about it. If there is no way to do this, this would mean that thermodynamics and information behavior in this outside, real world are very different from ours, as we cannot as a rule build such a system ourselves, there are no standalone, completely isolated systems of any kind in our universe, and also interestingly, the simple fact of acknowledging this negates it's truth because you're detecting a fundamental difference between your simulation and the universe in which it is running, which makes it a paradox. If a universe exists with laws that allow for a simulation which cannot be detected from inside, but that the simulation itself is observable from outside, that means information can only flow outward. A universe like this would basically be an infinite substrate with many different systems in it that cannot observe each other, and the inability to observe a separate system would be the stable state of such a universe. So it wouldn't make sense that an observer in such a universe would exist to observe the simulation as he would be a system without the capability of observing anything outside of himself, or in other words, information cannot flow outward either. So, it is very unlikely that we would not be able to detect and learn about the bare metal from inside, which means that it would be falsifiable. If it is falsifiable then people making the claim ought to be able to demonstrate it. If not, it's a "simulation" that is completely isolated to the point that nobody in the universe where it is running can even detect that it is running, or in other words, not a simulation at all.
- seba_dos1 3y ago
  Not sure how you got this part: > So it wouldn't make sense that an observer in such a universe would exist to observe the simulation as he would be a system without the capability of observing anything outside of himself I can easily simulate and observe systems without influencing them as they run. I may have the means to influence them, but it doesn't mean that I have to use them. In fact, many simulations in this world are performed for the exact purpose of inspecting what the end result is going to be without interfering while they're being run.
  - friend_and_foe 3y ago
    So in particular at a quantum level, simply observing something interferes with the outcome. Ignoring that, any system you set up will affect and be affected by the external world, such as heat transfer, light bouncing off of the system or it's components, electrical noise on a circuit, and it inherits the natural laws by which it's environment, the universe, is governed, such as the speed of light. You don't need to interfere, the system will be affected by it's environment, and stopping that from happening entirely is impossible.
    - seba_dos1 3y ago
      The simulator will be affected, but if it affects the simulation itself, it means the simulator is flawed.
      - friend_and_foe 3y ago
        A simulation running on a simulator will be affected by anything that affects the simulator. Electrical noise warping the speed at which the simulation happens, but flips from cosmic rays, even the hard latency due to the speed of light, all things that affect the simulation itself. It is unavoidable, some information about the real universe will leak into the simulation. So if we are a simulation, it is detectable, unless the bare metal universe allows for 0 entropy processes, in which case the simulation would likely be as unobservable from the universe as the universe is from within the simulation, which makes it not really a simulation at all.

friend_and_foe 3y ago

Interestingly, if there is a way to detect that we are in a simulation, it means that there is some side channel by which information can pass between the simulation and it's bare metal, the world in which it is being run. This would mean that the simulation itself is a phenomenon inside this base reality and so is very real and also that we can learn things about it. If there is no way to do this, this would mean that thermodynamics and information behavior in this outside, real world are very different from ours, as we cannot as a rule build such a system ourselves, there are no standalone, completely isolated systems of any kind in our universe, and also interestingly, the simple fact of acknowledging this negates it's truth because you're detecting a fundamental difference between your simulation and the universe in which it is running, which makes it a paradox. If a universe exists with laws that allow for a simulation which cannot be detected from inside, but that the simulation itself is observable from outside, that means information can only flow outward. A universe like this would basically be an infinite substrate with many different systems in it that cannot observe each other, and the inability to observe a separate system would be the stable state of such a universe. So it wouldn't make sense that an observer in such a universe would exist to observe the simulation as he would be a system without the capability of observing anything outside of himself, or in other words, information cannot flow outward either. So, it is very unlikely that we would not be able to detect and learn about the bare metal from inside, which means that it would be falsifiable. If it is falsifiable then people making the claim ought to be able to demonstrate it. If not, it's a "simulation" that is completely isolated to the point that nobody in the universe where it is running can even detect that it is running, or in other words, not a simulation at all.

seba_dos1 3y ago
Not sure how you got this part: > So it wouldn't make sense that an observer in such a universe would exist to observe the simulation as he would be a system without the capability of observing anything outside of himself I can easily simulate and observe systems without influencing them as they run. I may have the means to influence them, but it doesn't mean that I have to use them. In fact, many simulations in this world are performed for the exact purpose of inspecting what the end result is going to be without interfering while they're being run.
- friend_and_foe 3y ago
  So in particular at a quantum level, simply observing something interferes with the outcome. Ignoring that, any system you set up will affect and be affected by the external world, such as heat transfer, light bouncing off of the system or it's components, electrical noise on a circuit, and it inherits the natural laws by which it's environment, the universe, is governed, such as the speed of light. You don't need to interfere, the system will be affected by it's environment, and stopping that from happening entirely is impossible.
  - seba_dos1 3y ago
    The simulator will be affected, but if it affects the simulation itself, it means the simulator is flawed.
    - friend_and_foe 3y ago
      A simulation running on a simulator will be affected by anything that affects the simulator. Electrical noise warping the speed at which the simulation happens, but flips from cosmic rays, even the hard latency due to the speed of light, all things that affect the simulation itself. It is unavoidable, some information about the real universe will leak into the simulation. So if we are a simulation, it is detectable, unless the bare metal universe allows for 0 entropy processes, in which case the simulation would likely be as unobservable from the universe as the universe is from within the simulation, which makes it not really a simulation at all.