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3 Chapter 1:st paragraph in the law concering postal delivery in sweden. Postnord has an obligation to deliver mail. Interesting to see what will rank higher

3 Chapter 1:st paragraph in the law concering postal delivery in sweden. Postnord has an obligation to deliver mail. Interesting to see what will rank higher in court. The postal law or the right to strikes.

danpalmer 3y ago
Seems very likely the strike action will win out, otherwise there's no effective route to strike action from postal workers. Whether they aren't allowed to strike or Postnord is allowed to bring in non-union workers, both would neutralise any strike effectiveness, and given Sweden's strong labour laws it seems unlikely that would be the case. Another way of looking at it is that Postnord is not refusing as a policy to deliver mail, and that's probably what the legal obligation is around. It's just that their employees are striking so mail isn't currently being delivered. The same happens in the UK, Royal Mail are obligated to deliver to every address, but that doesn't stop there being strikes.
- Jensson 3y ago
  > and given Sweden's strong labour laws it seems unlikely that would be the case Sweden doesn't have strong labour laws, Sweden just doesn't regulate union power that much. Unions are extremely powerful entities with no regulations so you have to limit it a bit, just like you have to limit the power of private corporations. If a private corporation could block your access to essential government services then that would be a big problem, the same applies to unions. The government is supposed to be impartial in this case, a union shouldn't be allowed to block essential government services.
  - M95D 3y ago
    > Unions are extremely powerful entities with no regulations so you have to limit it a bit Why? > just like you have to limit the power of private corporations. Not the same thing. Unions act in the interest of their members and even other workers non-members. Corporations act in the interest of their shareholders, against workers (lower salary => profit) and ordinary citizens (polution, monopoly, prices, lower quality => all profit). Or maybe you are not interested in all that? > If a private corporation could block your access to essential government services then that would be a big problem Like how my internet service provider could (if they wanted to) block my access to government sites? Yes. True. Big problem. But they can. Right now, they can. > the same applies to unions But they only block it for a company, a specific company. Why should companies be treated like natural persons? > The government is supposed to be impartial in this case Wrong. So wrong I'm shocked anyone could say this. Are you paid to troll? Did you ever hear of a concept called "DEMOCRACY"? Goverments should act in the interest of their citizens (who voted!), not be impartial to citizens vs. corporations. More than that they should be impartial and act for the good of ALL their citizens, not doing favors to Tesla customers who didn't receive their toy before Christmas.
LegitShady 3y ago
It depends on whats actually in the lawsuit. The regulations may say that about the mail in general, but Tesla might just argue the government MUST supply a non Postnord method of distribution if Postnord doesn't have to do it. Also, Postnord as an organization is different than a trade union in postnord, etc. The law is not a "the writing says this so its always this". Saying "postal law vs right to strikes" is a false dilemma. It might just mean "the government must allow an alternate distribution method for basic services if postnord has no obligation to deliver mail."
- abc123abc123 3y ago
  Good point. Delivery of mail and packages is critical infrastructure which the government should ensure. Therefore I would argue strikes within that field should be limited. I am certain doctors, police and military have limitations when it comes to strikes. I like your interpretation as a work around. Postal workers, please go ahead and strike, but then the government/postnord have to provide alternative means to deliver mail and packages.
sakjur 3y ago
It’s possible PTS approves blockades as “exceptional circumstances” and exempts PostNord from their obligation to deliver mail to Tesla?
- martin8412 3y ago
  It's a standard clause in contracts in Scandinavia. All obligations are suspended in case of industrial action.
bux93 3y ago
The suit isn't even targeting Postnord, but targeting the Swedish Transport Agency instead. So Tesla's lawyers aren't even trying. If the Transport Agency is directed to get the plates to Tesla in some other way, whatever party then needs to follow up on that (unionized Transport Agency personnel?) may also decide to strike, so it's questionable if this strategy is a good one. Well, I mean, it's obviously a bad strategy to antagonize organized labor in a country with rule of law that observes its international obligations under ILO conventions, but, you know, given the circumstances.
- scottyah 3y ago
  I think Tesla's workers have issues with the law stating that all license plates must be delivered through Postnord. Tesla has tried to pick them up themselves, but since that is not allowed, and the strike is, it's basically state sanctioned theft. If Postnord doesn't want to deliver, that's fine- but there should be a way to take possession of property.
- abc123abc123 3y ago
  Apparently the tesla lawyers are reading hackernews. Now they are. ;)
martin8412 3y ago
It's force majeure. The liberalisation of the postal service in the early 2000s gave workers the right to strike. When it was a monopoly, the workers didn't have the right to strike.

danpalmer 3y ago

Seems very likely the strike action will win out, otherwise there's no effective route to strike action from postal workers. Whether they aren't allowed to strike or Postnord is allowed to bring in non-union workers, both would neutralise any strike effectiveness, and given Sweden's strong labour laws it seems unlikely that would be the case. Another way of looking at it is that Postnord is not refusing as a policy to deliver mail, and that's probably what the legal obligation is around. It's just that their employees are striking so mail isn't currently being delivered. The same happens in the UK, Royal Mail are obligated to deliver to every address, but that doesn't stop there being strikes.

Jensson 3y ago
> and given Sweden's strong labour laws it seems unlikely that would be the case Sweden doesn't have strong labour laws, Sweden just doesn't regulate union power that much. Unions are extremely powerful entities with no regulations so you have to limit it a bit, just like you have to limit the power of private corporations. If a private corporation could block your access to essential government services then that would be a big problem, the same applies to unions. The government is supposed to be impartial in this case, a union shouldn't be allowed to block essential government services.
- M95D 3y ago
  > Unions are extremely powerful entities with no regulations so you have to limit it a bit Why? > just like you have to limit the power of private corporations. Not the same thing. Unions act in the interest of their members and even other workers non-members. Corporations act in the interest of their shareholders, against workers (lower salary => profit) and ordinary citizens (polution, monopoly, prices, lower quality => all profit). Or maybe you are not interested in all that? > If a private corporation could block your access to essential government services then that would be a big problem Like how my internet service provider could (if they wanted to) block my access to government sites? Yes. True. Big problem. But they can. Right now, they can. > the same applies to unions But they only block it for a company, a specific company. Why should companies be treated like natural persons? > The government is supposed to be impartial in this case Wrong. So wrong I'm shocked anyone could say this. Are you paid to troll? Did you ever hear of a concept called "DEMOCRACY"? Goverments should act in the interest of their citizens (who voted!), not be impartial to citizens vs. corporations. More than that they should be impartial and act for the good of ALL their citizens, not doing favors to Tesla customers who didn't receive their toy before Christmas.

LegitShady 3y ago

It depends on whats actually in the lawsuit. The regulations may say that about the mail in general, but Tesla might just argue the government MUST supply a non Postnord method of distribution if Postnord doesn't have to do it. Also, Postnord as an organization is different than a trade union in postnord, etc. The law is not a "the writing says this so its always this". Saying "postal law vs right to strikes" is a false dilemma. It might just mean "the government must allow an alternate distribution method for basic services if postnord has no obligation to deliver mail."

abc123abc123 3y ago
Good point. Delivery of mail and packages is critical infrastructure which the government should ensure. Therefore I would argue strikes within that field should be limited. I am certain doctors, police and military have limitations when it comes to strikes. I like your interpretation as a work around. Postal workers, please go ahead and strike, but then the government/postnord have to provide alternative means to deliver mail and packages.

sakjur 3y ago

It’s possible PTS approves blockades as “exceptional circumstances” and exempts PostNord from their obligation to deliver mail to Tesla?

martin8412 3y ago
It's a standard clause in contracts in Scandinavia. All obligations are suspended in case of industrial action.

bux93 3y ago

The suit isn't even targeting Postnord, but targeting the Swedish Transport Agency instead. So Tesla's lawyers aren't even trying. If the Transport Agency is directed to get the plates to Tesla in some other way, whatever party then needs to follow up on that (unionized Transport Agency personnel?) may also decide to strike, so it's questionable if this strategy is a good one. Well, I mean, it's obviously a bad strategy to antagonize organized labor in a country with rule of law that observes its international obligations under ILO conventions, but, you know, given the circumstances.

scottyah 3y ago
I think Tesla's workers have issues with the law stating that all license plates must be delivered through Postnord. Tesla has tried to pick them up themselves, but since that is not allowed, and the strike is, it's basically state sanctioned theft. If Postnord doesn't want to deliver, that's fine- but there should be a way to take possession of property.
abc123abc123 3y ago
Apparently the tesla lawyers are reading hackernews. Now they are. ;)

martin8412 3y ago

It's force majeure. The liberalisation of the postal service in the early 2000s gave workers the right to strike. When it was a monopoly, the workers didn't have the right to strike.