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>to get the EU digital markets update, which lets you uninstall Edge. Again — as a former anti-EU person — I am reminded why I am now pro-EU. While nowhere per

by Dah00n 3y ago

>to get the EU digital markets update, which lets you uninstall Edge. Again — as a former anti-EU person — I am reminded why I am now pro-EU. While nowhere perfect it is much better than not having an EU and way, way better than the US.

jacquesm 3y ago
I've come across many anti EU persons and there are some broad categories: - the uninformed, they have no idea about how the EU came about or what it does, but they're against it anyway - the people on the receiving end of the regulations (anti-trust, advertisers, marketeers, bankers, data sellers etc). They have a very good idea about what it does, but it interferes with their preferred way of getting to more cash. - the people that are nostalgic and that remember their country as it was 50 years ago and would like to go back there. They believe that because the EU happened to coincide with the downslide of their country that the two are related. What they usually forget is that without the EU that downslide would have been much worse. - the people who genuinely believe that 'smaller is better' when it comes to politics and who tend to miss the wood for the trees: that in politics smaller is only better when you are very wealthy and can set your own rules. Think Switzerland. Everybody else will have a less privileged position and if they find themselves up against the giants of the world for whatever reason suddenly 'small' translates to 'weak'. In unity there is some strength so it makes sense for smaller countries to join in a larger unit, if only to curb the inevitable infighting (and the local wars that come with those). I've yet to come across someone who actually spent some time figuring out what the EU actually does who remained against it. There is a lot of valid criticism against the EU bureaucrats: lots of them are grifters and there is quite a bit of corruption. But it is much worse in other places and on balance I'll take the grifters because I realize that politics as such is a grift of sorts, but it is inevitable, like taxes are. Until we manage to change human nature no political system will be perfect. But given that the EU tends to stand up for the little guy and that they are powerful enough to make a difference but not so powerful enough that they are getting drunk on that power I'm ok with it.
- vodkapump 3y ago
  You forgot one: - Don't touch my fish
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Spot on. There's a lot to criticize the EU for and it's definitely in dire need of reform in some places, but overall it's a net benefit to all members despite the squabbles, that being anti-EU feels strange. The wealthy countries that chose never to join like Switzerland and Norway have their own valid reasons to not join (fear of regulation on banking, fishing and oil that's not in their favor) and still thrive due to their wealth. But leaving the EU doesn't automatically turn your country into Switzerland or Norway like the UK expected. People often do miss the forest from the trees and that stuff like quality democracy and unions like the EU are never a "fire and forget" solution but a rolling grinding game that must constantly be kept in checks and bounds witch citizen involvement and outcry, over generations, otherwise it slowly gets eroded.
  - blibble 3y ago
    > But leaving the EU doesn't automatically turn your country into Switzerland or Norway like the UK expected. this was never expected or mentioned by anyone
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      Oh it was, and a lot, by both pro-Brexit parties and advocates, you probably don't remember. They kept pointing at Switzerland and Norway as arguments of how well you can succeed without the EU.
      - smsm42 3y ago
        There's a difference between saying "it's possible to exist without EU - see countries X and Y as an example" and "if we leave EU we will turn immediately into country X or Y". The first is reasonable argument, the second is completely ridiculous.
throw10920 3y ago
What does this have to do with the EU? This just sounds like decent regulation.
- medo-bear 3y ago
  EU is pretty much all about regulation
  - sgift 3y ago
    Well yes, that's what governments do. They regulate things (it's usually called laws, which the regulations are not called, so it is clear they have to be translated into local law first), they make deals, they coordinate responses. What do you expect the EU to do?
  - throw10920 3y ago
    Like eIDAS? That's not very appealing. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38109494 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38109494
    - medo-bear 3y ago
      Regulation can be bad or good. I was stating a fact about what regulations and EU have to do with one another. I believe that EU has big problems however I also believe that it has a much bigger potential. I am also glad that UK left because no one can have preferential treatment.
browningstreet 3y ago
The EU wants to use this trust relationship to break all encryption.
- sgift 3y ago
  The EU doesn't want anything. The EU follows the wishes of the governments of the countries as one representation of the will of the people and the parliament as another representation. You want them to not break encryption? Maybe vote for better representatives next time.

by Dah00n 3y ago

jacquesm 3y ago

I've come across many anti EU persons and there are some broad categories: - the uninformed, they have no idea about how the EU came about or what it does, but they're against it anyway - the people on the receiving end of the regulations (anti-trust, advertisers, marketeers, bankers, data sellers etc). They have a very good idea about what it does, but it interferes with their preferred way of getting to more cash. - the people that are nostalgic and that remember their country as it was 50 years ago and would like to go back there. They believe that because the EU happened to coincide with the downslide of their country that the two are related. What they usually forget is that without the EU that downslide would have been much worse. - the people who genuinely believe that 'smaller is better' when it comes to politics and who tend to miss the wood for the trees: that in politics smaller is only better when you are very wealthy and can set your own rules. Think Switzerland. Everybody else will have a less privileged position and if they find themselves up against the giants of the world for whatever reason suddenly 'small' translates to 'weak'. In unity there is some strength so it makes sense for smaller countries to join in a larger unit, if only to curb the inevitable infighting (and the local wars that come with those). I've yet to come across someone who actually spent some time figuring out what the EU actually does who remained against it. There is a lot of valid criticism against the EU bureaucrats: lots of them are grifters and there is quite a bit of corruption. But it is much worse in other places and on balance I'll take the grifters because I realize that politics as such is a grift of sorts, but it is inevitable, like taxes are. Until we manage to change human nature no political system will be perfect. But given that the EU tends to stand up for the little guy and that they are powerful enough to make a difference but not so powerful enough that they are getting drunk on that power I'm ok with it.

vodkapump 3y ago
You forgot one: - Don't touch my fish
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
Spot on. There's a lot to criticize the EU for and it's definitely in dire need of reform in some places, but overall it's a net benefit to all members despite the squabbles, that being anti-EU feels strange. The wealthy countries that chose never to join like Switzerland and Norway have their own valid reasons to not join (fear of regulation on banking, fishing and oil that's not in their favor) and still thrive due to their wealth. But leaving the EU doesn't automatically turn your country into Switzerland or Norway like the UK expected. People often do miss the forest from the trees and that stuff like quality democracy and unions like the EU are never a "fire and forget" solution but a rolling grinding game that must constantly be kept in checks and bounds witch citizen involvement and outcry, over generations, otherwise it slowly gets eroded.
- blibble 3y ago
  > But leaving the EU doesn't automatically turn your country into Switzerland or Norway like the UK expected. this was never expected or mentioned by anyone
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Oh it was, and a lot, by both pro-Brexit parties and advocates, you probably don't remember. They kept pointing at Switzerland and Norway as arguments of how well you can succeed without the EU.
    - smsm42 3y ago
      There's a difference between saying "it's possible to exist without EU - see countries X and Y as an example" and "if we leave EU we will turn immediately into country X or Y". The first is reasonable argument, the second is completely ridiculous.

throw10920 3y ago

What does this have to do with the EU? This just sounds like decent regulation.

medo-bear 3y ago
EU is pretty much all about regulation
- sgift 3y ago
  Well yes, that's what governments do. They regulate things (it's usually called laws, which the regulations are not called, so it is clear they have to be translated into local law first), they make deals, they coordinate responses. What do you expect the EU to do?
- throw10920 3y ago
  Like eIDAS? That's not very appealing. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38109494 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38109494
  - medo-bear 3y ago
    Regulation can be bad or good. I was stating a fact about what regulations and EU have to do with one another. I believe that EU has big problems however I also believe that it has a much bigger potential. I am also glad that UK left because no one can have preferential treatment.

browningstreet 3y ago

The EU wants to use this trust relationship to break all encryption.

sgift 3y ago
The EU doesn't want anything. The EU follows the wishes of the governments of the countries as one representation of the will of the people and the parliament as another representation. You want them to not break encryption? Maybe vote for better representatives next time.