4 ms·

> Test subjects consistently report that keyboarding is faster than mousing. > The stopwatch consistently proves mousing is faster than keyboarding. I like to

> Test subjects consistently report that keyboarding is faster than mousing. > The stopwatch consistently proves mousing is faster than keyboarding. I like to think that the goal of optimizing my editing workflow is not (necessarily) making it objectively faster, but rather making it feel faster so that the frustrations are removed and the experience is smoother. This is, of course, my entirely subjective take.

xeyownt 3y ago
I guess this is again a case of taking the results of a study to pull conclusions in different contexts.
merelysounds 3y ago
Same. The article describes friction and reducing context switching - I agree with that too. In practice: if, while in deep focus, I can e.g. navigate the project via muscle memory, this means I can keep thinking about the problem domain. As opposed to pausing to hunt and peck an icon or a token.
- troupo 3y ago
  While in deep focus I use the mouse extensively because I can scroll text, quickly Cmd/Ctrl-click on code that is far away from the cursor etc. Note: I use IntelliJ IDEA that has full keyboard navigation and mouse navigation.
  - klibertp 3y ago
    Scrolling is indeed one of the things that both are and feel faster with the mouse. I also came to like docs popping up on mouse hover (in IDEA and with lsp-ui in Emacs), as well as "go to definition" on C-<mouse-1>. The context menu on right-click (see mouse3.el for Emacs) is also helpful when browsing/reading the code. When coding, reaching for the mouse is an irritating distraction. When reading, though, if you have enough actions bound to the mouse, I find mousing to be much more convenient. Mainly because I can eat my sandwich with one hand while still navigating and making minor changes with the other hand. Many mice and trackballs (my preference) offer just enough distinct buttons/events to bind almost everything you'd need to do during a review of some code, for example. Default bindings for the mouse in Emacs are all wrong for this - most useful things are bound to C/M-<mouse-x>, and pressing C or M with a hand holding a sandwich is neither convenient nor hygienic. I'm now trying to remap the useful things so that they are accessible with only a mouse.
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  Thats why I love the command palette in VS code. Keyboard accessible. Tells you what the short cut is but has everything because you probably wont remember them all
  - oblio 3y ago
    It's basically search with autocomplete, for commands.
    - quickthrower2 3y ago
      That is all I need. I hope they don't AI-ify it or anything.
dguest 3y ago
I didn't get any context from this quote. Where they comparing people using emacs?
rakoo 3y ago
Which means that rethinking our habits to explore using the mouse, and inventing other concepts that include the mouse, is worth it
celrod 3y ago
Another comment cited this Dan Luu article: https://danluu.com/keyboard-v-mouse/ https://danluu.com/keyboard-v-mouse/ Apparently a lot more claiming evidence exists than sharing of actual evidence. One of the few things shared was a pseudoscientific explanation that stated precisely the opposite of your (and my) subjective experience: That using the mouse is less distracting and can be better committed to muscle memory than "command keys". I think that is patently false, and don't thing Tog should be taken as anything but a marketing hack. Disclaimer: my knowledge of Tog is limited to what is presented in that Dan Luu article.
broken-kebab 3y ago
>The stopwatch consistently proves mousing is faster than keyboarding. This pretty obviously wrong unless measured on very specific audience for very specific tasks. You need not to be an Emacs/Vim afficionado to know that e.g. ctrl-s, ctrl-c etc. are faster vs moving mouse to an icon, or clicking out a context menu. That's why like everyone with an experience of using a desktop of more than a year uses at least a few hotkeys
- PurpleRamen 3y ago
  That quote seems to be from around 1989. So the studies are 35+ years old now. And they are from Apple, which had a well optimized GUI even in their early days. It's really not that hard to see Apple-researchers having better results at their preferred tasks on their own optimized interface, at a time when everything was still quite young and unoptimized. So I would take those quote as selection biased.

xeyownt 3y ago

I guess this is again a case of taking the results of a study to pull conclusions in different contexts.

merelysounds 3y ago

Same. The article describes friction and reducing context switching - I agree with that too. In practice: if, while in deep focus, I can e.g. navigate the project via muscle memory, this means I can keep thinking about the problem domain. As opposed to pausing to hunt and peck an icon or a token.

troupo 3y ago
While in deep focus I use the mouse extensively because I can scroll text, quickly Cmd/Ctrl-click on code that is far away from the cursor etc. Note: I use IntelliJ IDEA that has full keyboard navigation and mouse navigation.
- klibertp 3y ago
  Scrolling is indeed one of the things that both are and feel faster with the mouse. I also came to like docs popping up on mouse hover (in IDEA and with lsp-ui in Emacs), as well as "go to definition" on C-<mouse-1>. The context menu on right-click (see mouse3.el for Emacs) is also helpful when browsing/reading the code. When coding, reaching for the mouse is an irritating distraction. When reading, though, if you have enough actions bound to the mouse, I find mousing to be much more convenient. Mainly because I can eat my sandwich with one hand while still navigating and making minor changes with the other hand. Many mice and trackballs (my preference) offer just enough distinct buttons/events to bind almost everything you'd need to do during a review of some code, for example. Default bindings for the mouse in Emacs are all wrong for this - most useful things are bound to C/M-<mouse-x>, and pressing C or M with a hand holding a sandwich is neither convenient nor hygienic. I'm now trying to remap the useful things so that they are accessible with only a mouse.
quickthrower2 3y ago
Thats why I love the command palette in VS code. Keyboard accessible. Tells you what the short cut is but has everything because you probably wont remember them all
- oblio 3y ago
  It's basically search with autocomplete, for commands.
  - quickthrower2 3y ago
    That is all I need. I hope they don't AI-ify it or anything.

dguest 3y ago

I didn't get any context from this quote. Where they comparing people using emacs?

rakoo 3y ago

Which means that rethinking our habits to explore using the mouse, and inventing other concepts that include the mouse, is worth it

celrod 3y ago

Another comment cited this Dan Luu article: https://danluu.com/keyboard-v-mouse/ https://danluu.com/keyboard-v-mouse/ Apparently a lot more claiming evidence exists than sharing of actual evidence. One of the few things shared was a pseudoscientific explanation that stated precisely the opposite of your (and my) subjective experience: That using the mouse is less distracting and can be better committed to muscle memory than "command keys". I think that is patently false, and don't thing Tog should be taken as anything but a marketing hack. Disclaimer: my knowledge of Tog is limited to what is presented in that Dan Luu article.

broken-kebab 3y ago

>The stopwatch consistently proves mousing is faster than keyboarding. This pretty obviously wrong unless measured on very specific audience for very specific tasks. You need not to be an Emacs/Vim afficionado to know that e.g. ctrl-s, ctrl-c etc. are faster vs moving mouse to an icon, or clicking out a context menu. That's why like everyone with an experience of using a desktop of more than a year uses at least a few hotkeys

PurpleRamen 3y ago
That quote seems to be from around 1989. So the studies are 35+ years old now. And they are from Apple, which had a well optimized GUI even in their early days. It's really not that hard to see Apple-researchers having better results at their preferred tasks on their own optimized interface, at a time when everything was still quite young and unoptimized. So I would take those quote as selection biased.