4 ms·

Well, a brick and mortar home isn't as well insulated. You've also got major appliances that weren't common place a century ago (fridges, washer, dryer, dishwas

Well, a brick and mortar home isn't as well insulated. You've also got major appliances that weren't common place a century ago (fridges, washer, dryer, dishwasher, etc), waaaay more lighting, HVAC systems, etc. Basically rising standards for what people want out of a home, rising land costs, + rising labor costs. Another not insignificant problem that people are aware of is that all the zoning/permitting also adds significant hidden cost to the process because builders have a lot of downtime waiting for that. There's also the hidden cost of improved safety standards & the compliance checks that come with it - 100 years ago you probably didn't have to have someone from the city come out & certify all the work was done to code. Sure the cost of the inspector is a direct cost, but the need for the inspector in the first place adds random delays for the contractor work & they then need to budget cost into their estimate because the person paying is paying a roughly fixed cost for the work to get done. What's the policy you want to write that would fix things?

ido 3y ago
Appliances etc are not part of the building cost (at least not here - in Germany you buy a home and then you buy appliances). The cost of the home without appliances is also much higher. And it’s not just compared to the 50s, it’s also compared to the ‘00s and ‘10s where we had more or less the same appliances we have today.
- retube 3y ago
  I don't think the parent meant the cost of the actual appliances, but designing a house to accommodate them - the power, plumbing, ventilation, fire & smoke prevention and detection etc
- nullindividual 3y ago
  In the US, it is expected that a home comes with a dishwasher, oven, and refrigerator. The other appliances would be post-purchase.
  - Kirby64 3y ago
    Outside of new construction where things are bundled, a fridge is not a standard thing to come with a house. Only things that are considered “built in” are legally part of a house sale. Fridges are almost never attached physically, outside of expensive built-in ones. Interestingly enough, this means that sometimes a cooktop/oven is not considered part of this if it’s movable and not bolted to the wall in some way. Sometimes they are sold with the house as part of a bundle, but that would be called a “conveyance” as it’s not considered “real” property (in the legal sense) and is usually a separate line item or form in a house sale contract.
AnthonyMouse 3y ago
> What's the policy you want to write that would fix things? Let's go through them. > Well, a brick and mortar home isn't as well insulated. Brick is actually a pretty good insulator. They don't use it because it costs more than what they do use, so that can't be the reason. > You've also got major appliances that weren't common place a century ago (fridges, washer, dryer, dishwasher, etc), waaaay more lighting, HVAC systems, etc. Houses literally have had appliances and HVAC systems for a hundred years, and largely modern ones for at least half that long. This doesn't explain why construction costs so much more than it did in the mid-20th century. > Another not insignificant problem that people are aware of is that all the zoning/permitting also adds significant hidden cost to the process because builders have a lot of downtime waiting for that. This is where you get into a real issue, but it also has a real solution: Have combined permitting and combined inspections. Don't require separate permits for every part of a new house, have a single permit application for "building a new house" with a single approval. Also, comb through the regulations and remove the ones that are effectively micromanaging minor trade-offs. Legal prohibitions should be for major safety hazards, not to legally mandate every marginal improvement anybody can come up with for anything which then has to be individually evaluated, inspected and signed off on in every new construction project. Put all of the marginal improvements into an optional certificate builders can get if buyers demand it -- and if buyers rarely find it to be worth the expense then reevaluate the cost effectiveness of what it takes to get it. The goal is to make sensible trade offs rather than to raise construction costs, right? (Note: The goal may previously have been to intentionally raise construction costs.)
- vlovich123 3y ago
  I don’t disagree with the zoning and permitting process needing reforms, but I have a tough time believing that it’s responsible for more than 10-20% of the price. Have you read any analysis anywhere to suggest otherwise? > Houses literally have had appliances and HVAC systems for a hundred years, and largely modern ones for at least half that long Just so we’re on the same page 100 years ago is 1923. The first AC unit was installed in 1914. The first room AC was in 1931 for the “affordable” price of $10k-50k. There was not mass adoption of HVAC systems until much much later and homes weren’t design for central air until like the 50s or maybe even after that. Same goes for fridges and washing machines. 1950s was when that stuff became a bit more common place. But the first fridges started trickling out in 1913. Freon came in the 1920s and fridges became more common place by the 1930s. Freezers came later in the 1940s but before that it was ice boxes if you were on the wealthier side. Same goes for dishwashers and laundry. It hasn’t been a hundred years yet and those innovations really became commonplace only after WWII because America became super wealthy (only major power not massively impacted by WWII) and was heavily industrialized for the war effort and those factories and manufacturing expertise could be repurposed for non war production making goods like this cheap.

ido 3y ago

Appliances etc are not part of the building cost (at least not here - in Germany you buy a home and then you buy appliances). The cost of the home without appliances is also much higher. And it’s not just compared to the 50s, it’s also compared to the ‘00s and ‘10s where we had more or less the same appliances we have today.

retube 3y ago
I don't think the parent meant the cost of the actual appliances, but designing a house to accommodate them - the power, plumbing, ventilation, fire & smoke prevention and detection etc
nullindividual 3y ago
In the US, it is expected that a home comes with a dishwasher, oven, and refrigerator. The other appliances would be post-purchase.
- Kirby64 3y ago
  Outside of new construction where things are bundled, a fridge is not a standard thing to come with a house. Only things that are considered “built in” are legally part of a house sale. Fridges are almost never attached physically, outside of expensive built-in ones. Interestingly enough, this means that sometimes a cooktop/oven is not considered part of this if it’s movable and not bolted to the wall in some way. Sometimes they are sold with the house as part of a bundle, but that would be called a “conveyance” as it’s not considered “real” property (in the legal sense) and is usually a separate line item or form in a house sale contract.

AnthonyMouse 3y ago

> What's the policy you want to write that would fix things? Let's go through them. > Well, a brick and mortar home isn't as well insulated. Brick is actually a pretty good insulator. They don't use it because it costs more than what they do use, so that can't be the reason. > You've also got major appliances that weren't common place a century ago (fridges, washer, dryer, dishwasher, etc), waaaay more lighting, HVAC systems, etc. Houses literally have had appliances and HVAC systems for a hundred years, and largely modern ones for at least half that long. This doesn't explain why construction costs so much more than it did in the mid-20th century. > Another not insignificant problem that people are aware of is that all the zoning/permitting also adds significant hidden cost to the process because builders have a lot of downtime waiting for that. This is where you get into a real issue, but it also has a real solution: Have combined permitting and combined inspections. Don't require separate permits for every part of a new house, have a single permit application for "building a new house" with a single approval. Also, comb through the regulations and remove the ones that are effectively micromanaging minor trade-offs. Legal prohibitions should be for major safety hazards, not to legally mandate every marginal improvement anybody can come up with for anything which then has to be individually evaluated, inspected and signed off on in every new construction project. Put all of the marginal improvements into an optional certificate builders can get if buyers demand it -- and if buyers rarely find it to be worth the expense then reevaluate the cost effectiveness of what it takes to get it. The goal is to make sensible trade offs rather than to raise construction costs, right? (Note: The goal may previously have been to intentionally raise construction costs.)

vlovich123 3y ago
I don’t disagree with the zoning and permitting process needing reforms, but I have a tough time believing that it’s responsible for more than 10-20% of the price. Have you read any analysis anywhere to suggest otherwise? > Houses literally have had appliances and HVAC systems for a hundred years, and largely modern ones for at least half that long Just so we’re on the same page 100 years ago is 1923. The first AC unit was installed in 1914. The first room AC was in 1931 for the “affordable” price of $10k-50k. There was not mass adoption of HVAC systems until much much later and homes weren’t design for central air until like the 50s or maybe even after that. Same goes for fridges and washing machines. 1950s was when that stuff became a bit more common place. But the first fridges started trickling out in 1913. Freon came in the 1920s and fridges became more common place by the 1930s. Freezers came later in the 1940s but before that it was ice boxes if you were on the wealthier side. Same goes for dishwashers and laundry. It hasn’t been a hundred years yet and those innovations really became commonplace only after WWII because America became super wealthy (only major power not massively impacted by WWII) and was heavily industrialized for the war effort and those factories and manufacturing expertise could be repurposed for non war production making goods like this cheap.