7 ms·

Actions like this will just hurt Wayland in the long run. It needs more users, and for that more applications that support it by default. No one will bring X11

Actions like this will just hurt Wayland in the long run. It needs more users, and for that more applications that support it by default. No one will bring X11 to the level of Wayland, but someone might fix the existing Wayland problems.

Gigachad 3y ago
Not sure it will do anything to hurt Wayland. The app will just run in XWayland which is mostly impossible to tell between a native Wayland app for users.
- rowanG077 3y ago
  Xwayland is instantly recognizable as shitty due to fractional scaling. Which almost everyone with a modern laptop uses.
  - Gigachad 3y ago
    I might not be up to date on this, but does fractional scaling work at all on Linux under any setup? Last I checked GTK just flat out didn't support it or something.
    - rowanG077 3y ago
      Yes wayland supports fractional scaling without issues. At least I have had no issues.
    - bryanlarsen 3y ago
      Works on KDE.
    - MindSpunk 3y ago
      KDE supports fractional scaling. GTK doesn't and as a result neither does GNOME. There's hacks in gnome to work around this by faking it with downscaled integer scaling (render at 2x, squash into 1.5x) but it never provided a good experience for me.
imiric 3y ago
X11 today works better for more users than Wayland. No user will want to switch to something that provides a worse experience. Until these issues are ironed out, it's delusional to think that making Wayland the default will make users happy. Keep it as an experimental feature, and once it provides an objectively better experience for everyone, make it the default. These technical discussions by folks in the trenches often miss the forest for the trees. Users don't care that X11 is difficult to support, develop and maintain. They just want a working system. By the looks of it from this GH issue, Wayland is also a pain for developers. What a sad state of affairs for Linux.
- hashworks 3y ago
  I guess I'm just hoping for some user that will be bugged enough by problems in Wayland that they decide to fix them. The chance of that increases with user count. I understand that the bulk "forest" of Linux users don't care about their window manager / desktop environment, but it's a higher number than in other operating systems. This approach wouldn't work in Windows or MacOS, in Linux it might.
  - LtWorf 3y ago
    Why learn about wayland and figure out how to fix things (and then probably have gnome developers never ever accept your fix) when you can just switch to Xorg in 3 seconds?
    - yencabulator 3y ago
      Because nobody maintains Xorg anymore. Wayland was started because the Xorg developers thought Xorg had come to the end of the road and was unfixable. You can think of Wayland as X12, except without copyright/trademark concerns.
      - LtWorf 3y ago
        > Because nobody maintains Xorg anymore Latest release in June… https://www.x.org/wiki/Releases/ https://www.x.org/wiki/Releases/ Doesn't seem extremely abandoned.

Gigachad 3y ago

Not sure it will do anything to hurt Wayland. The app will just run in XWayland which is mostly impossible to tell between a native Wayland app for users.

rowanG077 3y ago
Xwayland is instantly recognizable as shitty due to fractional scaling. Which almost everyone with a modern laptop uses.
- Gigachad 3y ago
  I might not be up to date on this, but does fractional scaling work at all on Linux under any setup? Last I checked GTK just flat out didn't support it or something.
  - rowanG077 3y ago
    Yes wayland supports fractional scaling without issues. At least I have had no issues.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    Works on KDE.
  - MindSpunk 3y ago
    KDE supports fractional scaling. GTK doesn't and as a result neither does GNOME. There's hacks in gnome to work around this by faking it with downscaled integer scaling (render at 2x, squash into 1.5x) but it never provided a good experience for me.

imiric 3y ago

X11 today works better for more users than Wayland. No user will want to switch to something that provides a worse experience. Until these issues are ironed out, it's delusional to think that making Wayland the default will make users happy. Keep it as an experimental feature, and once it provides an objectively better experience for everyone, make it the default. These technical discussions by folks in the trenches often miss the forest for the trees. Users don't care that X11 is difficult to support, develop and maintain. They just want a working system. By the looks of it from this GH issue, Wayland is also a pain for developers. What a sad state of affairs for Linux.

hashworks 3y ago
I guess I'm just hoping for some user that will be bugged enough by problems in Wayland that they decide to fix them. The chance of that increases with user count. I understand that the bulk "forest" of Linux users don't care about their window manager / desktop environment, but it's a higher number than in other operating systems. This approach wouldn't work in Windows or MacOS, in Linux it might.
- LtWorf 3y ago
  Why learn about wayland and figure out how to fix things (and then probably have gnome developers never ever accept your fix) when you can just switch to Xorg in 3 seconds?
  - yencabulator 3y ago
    Because nobody maintains Xorg anymore. Wayland was started because the Xorg developers thought Xorg had come to the end of the road and was unfixable. You can think of Wayland as X12, except without copyright/trademark concerns.
    - LtWorf 3y ago
      > Because nobody maintains Xorg anymore Latest release in June… https://www.x.org/wiki/Releases/ https://www.x.org/wiki/Releases/ Doesn't seem extremely abandoned.