7 ms·

I used to live nearish this nightmare. It’s truly awful planning and design. It’s got everything: - lanes that surprisingly lo you into turning off - lanes wh

I used to live nearish this nightmare. It’s truly awful planning and design. It’s got everything: - lanes that surprisingly lo you into turning off - lanes where you start in the left, and then find yourself on the right, and unable to take the turn you want (you have to lane-dive across another 2 lanes of traffic). - confusing split-and-rejoin mechanics that happen for now reason other than apparently “the designer wanted to fit every kind of junction and road shape into their project” - it’s so poorly designed, if you’re in Balmain (the peninsula side) and you want to get to Glebe/Forest-Lodge/Annandale; you have to spend 5 minutes (per light) in 3 sets of lights, to join all of the main traffic for a grand total of 200m, and lane dive, just to turn off again. For anyone not familiar with Sydney traffic, the “cross traffic” that goes city <—-> west is hideous. If you’re in Balmain, and you want to go the ~1km to Glebe you’re in for pain and wasted time. Spaghetti junction is an understatement, whoever worked on this, and had any role in it other than saying “this is awful” should be barred from working on infrastructure ever again and be made to sit in the corner and think about what they’ve done.

davely 3y ago
> Spaghetti junction is an understatement, whoever worked on this, and had any role in it other than saying “this is awful” should be barred from working on infrastructure ever again and be made to sit in the corner and think about what they’ve done. I grew up in Southern California and there was a notoriously horrible interchange (the 60 / 91 / 215) I had to navigate each day driving to university. The rumor that people liked to spread (completely unfounded, I’m sure), is that the engineer responsible for it killed themselves because of how bad it was and how many accidents occurred. I imagine this same sort of rumor is repeated about various interchanges the world over. EDIT: There are much more ridiculous looking intersections, but an interesting LA Times article on the interchange from 2007. [1] An improvement project that rebuilt the interchange was completed in 2007. [2] [1] https://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-freeway21sep21-story.html https://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-freeway21sep21-story.htm... [2] https://www.caltrop.com/project-details/sr60-sr91-i215-interchange/ https://www.caltrop.com/project-details/sr60-sr91-i215-inter...
- noduerme 3y ago
  I grew up in LA and drove taxi... just looking at the 60/(91/215), it looks pretty standard and not that different from the 10/215, but I don't think I've ever taken that exit from the 60. As enormous as SoCal freeway interchanges are, I've come to appreciate their design compared to the roads where I live now in Portland, OR. Every on- and off-ramp in Portland feels like it was tacked on or squeezed in, in the worst possible way. Moreover, the marking of exits is confusing and far too late. For out-of-town drivers it's almost impossible to don't know which side of a freeway will actually keep you on the freeway until you get to a sign, by which time you've already passed a mile of stopped cars in the lane you need to be in. The 26/405 junction heading east on 26, for example, splits the 3-lane highway into 3 exits, only one of which connects to the 405 and later splits into north and south (the other two connect to surface streets). This creates a condition where the center lane is moving fast between two lines of stopped cars, some of whom are anxiously realizing they're in the wrong lane and need to dive into the center, while some people in the center hit the brakes when they realize they need to dive into the stopped cars left or right.
- mynegation 3y ago
  Do you mean this one: https://maps.app.goo.gl/kF1PuDcgMotp91JR7?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/kF1PuDcgMotp91JR7?g_st=ic I am sure I am missing few details never having driven through it, but looks like pretty standard highway interchange. For comparison, here is the one I navigate regularly and would describe as mildly challenging: https://maps.app.goo.gl/S4zX6rXJt8dpBXig6?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/S4zX6rXJt8dpBXig6?g_st=ic
  - davely 3y ago
    Yeah, looking at a map, it looks pretty vanilla and I'm not sure why it had such a notorious reputation at this point. If I recall, I think the original was a cloverleaf design, so in every direction you had people merging on and off in a span of about 300 feet. Ah, yeah. It was renovated in 2007. [1] An LA Times article on its reputation is here. [2] > And there are plenty of accidents. Sgt. Morrison of the California Highway Patrol estimates that his officers respond to about 30 calls a day in and around the interchange. They handle fender-benders, stalled cars and the occasional 20-car pileup. That said, either way, it is pretty vanilla compared to the legit spaghetti mentioned in the article with regard to the Sydney interchange. [1] https://www.caltrop.com/project-details/sr60-sr91-i215-interchange/ https://www.caltrop.com/project-details/sr60-sr91-i215-inter... [2] https://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-freeway21sep21-story.html https://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-freeway21sep21-story.htm...
14u2c 3y ago
From the article it looks like you must pay $11 for pleasure of using this monstrosity as well? Wild.
- resolutebat 3y ago
  Only if you enter the motorway sections. Through traffic across the interchange is free.
ChatGTP 3y ago
I think it’s really sad Sydney is so car centric now. I remember reading about these projects when first commissioned and it really felt like more rail was a better investment. I took the westconnex on a visit a year or so ago. It was freaking empty. I couldn’t believe it.
- chrismsimpson 3y ago
  Now? Sydney was built around the notion of the automobile. The country has basically no continental rain to speak of.
  - ChatGTP 3y ago
    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/jul/28/erased-from-history-how-sydney-destroyed-its-trams-for-love-of-the-car https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/jul/28/erase... Not true.
- flopsamjetsam 3y ago
  I lived in the Inner West (Camperdown and Chippendale) for about 15 years. I felt really lucky that I could walk everywhere (with some effort, and I had reasonable free time) and didn't need a car. It was fun, learning all the routes and being able to see what was going on in all the suburbs around me. I was also lucky that I was pretty near a main road (Paramatta Rd) and buses were easy to catch. I moved away a few years ago to a much smaller city (Canberra), and find it's actually more car-centric than where I lived in Sydney, which is a shame. I also see my co-workers (still in Sydney) who have transportation centred around their car, although about half commute via public transport.
  - hilbert42 3y ago
    "...Canberra), and find it's actually more car-centric than where I lived in Sydney, which is a shame." I don't live in Canberra but from my many visits there my experience is that it's harder to go from A to B there than in Sydney (and Sydney is no shining light when it comes to getting about). That said, Burley Griffin's planning and layout for Canberra is a delight when compared to Sydney's dogleg-like haphazardness. Thus, it's likely that Canberra's openness makes getting about more difficult but there are probably other factors that locals are more aware of than I am. I suppose I am sensitive to issue because for a period I lived and worked in Europe and my main base there was Vienna. Getting around Vienna is simply a dream when compared to either Sydney or Canberra and I put this down to the way the Straßenbahn (tram) and U-Bahn transport networks work in that they are tightly coupled together in ways that facilitate the easy movement of people. Somehow, despite the fact that Vienna is a very old city with for the most part very narrow streets, the Viennese have installed a transport network that works extraordinarily well in the circumstances. (I would concede however the city had one advantage in that the old city walls were demolished in the last quarter of the 19th Century which made way for a ring road (Ringstraße) which greatly aids public transport.) But the Ringstraße was only part of the solution. The main issue, not only in Vienna but in many other European cities is the attitude of city planners. There, much more attention is focused on public transport and it seems this attitude has prevailed for many decades unlike the haphazard planning in Sydney (it's always been a political football here). Some say we can't plan like the Europeans do as we've not the population density and no doubt that's partially true but for some reason their attitude to planning is much more utilitarian and long-term than here. I think this is the key difference. Edit: to be fair I must add that in recent years Sydney's public transport has improved significantly even within confines of its existing infrastructure. Whilst some new rail routes/infrastructure have been added what has noticeably improved is the service, buses and trains are reasonably plentiful and importantly are usually on time. This makes public transport much more attractive.
hilbert42 3y ago
"Spaghetti junction is an understatement, <...> should be barred from working on infrastructure ever again and be made to sit in the corner." First, you're lucky that you no longer live nearish the nightmare, I still have to use The Crescent to get to Balmain or to Victoria Rd and for a year or so I've avoided the area like the plague. You shouldn't be surprised though at the stuff-up, Sydney and NSW is known for its fucked-up road system, and halfhearted and incompetent roadways/transport planning which has dogged the city from its colonial days. For instance, just look at the Eastern Suburbs Railway—why the hell does it terminate at Bondi Junction without going the extra distance to Bondi beach where everyone goes, especially in summer? It not only ought to go there but also complete the circuit across the Eastern Suburbs and end up back on the Southern Line, say at Wolli Creek junction. Sydney hasn't had anyone of sufficient sense and authority since John Bradfield to plan its transport infrastructure with any degree of competence which is a 100 years ago—and even then his broader more comprehensive plans were thwarted by the shortsighted gnomes in Macquarie St (NSW Parliament). For those overseas, Bradfield was primarily instrumental in forcing through the construction of the Sydney Harbour Bridge which is now a world landmark: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bradfield_(engineer) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bradfield_(engineer). Anyone interested in long-term planning should assiduously avoid moving to Sydney at any cost, if you come here then such notions will quickky evaporate and be replaced with feelings of mañana! Incidentally, here it seems fitting to mention a once landmark just down the road from Spaghetti Junction that you may recall: The Crescent is one of the main arterial roads that feed into this junction. At its other end at its intersection with Wigram Road there used to be a high Besser block wall that stopped non-payers from watching trotting at Harold Park, scrawled across it were large graffiti that said The Australian people are bloody-minded sheep. That the graffiti remained there for several decades and that no one—not even the Council—attempted to remove it until the wall was eventually removed for apartments development says something very significant. I always meant to take a photo of it but never got around to doing so. If anyone has a photo of it then I'd dearly love a copy.
- bardan 3y ago
  I remember that graffiti well from my childhood, although I recall it as "All Australians are bloody minded sheep". In retrospect it's remarkable it was there for so long.

davely 3y ago

> Spaghetti junction is an understatement, whoever worked on this, and had any role in it other than saying “this is awful” should be barred from working on infrastructure ever again and be made to sit in the corner and think about what they’ve done. I grew up in Southern California and there was a notoriously horrible interchange (the 60 / 91 / 215) I had to navigate each day driving to university. The rumor that people liked to spread (completely unfounded, I’m sure), is that the engineer responsible for it killed themselves because of how bad it was and how many accidents occurred. I imagine this same sort of rumor is repeated about various interchanges the world over. EDIT: There are much more ridiculous looking intersections, but an interesting LA Times article on the interchange from 2007. [1] An improvement project that rebuilt the interchange was completed in 2007. [2] [1] https://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-freeway21sep21-story.html https://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-freeway21sep21-story.htm... [2] https://www.caltrop.com/project-details/sr60-sr91-i215-interchange/ https://www.caltrop.com/project-details/sr60-sr91-i215-inter...

noduerme 3y ago
I grew up in LA and drove taxi... just looking at the 60/(91/215), it looks pretty standard and not that different from the 10/215, but I don't think I've ever taken that exit from the 60. As enormous as SoCal freeway interchanges are, I've come to appreciate their design compared to the roads where I live now in Portland, OR. Every on- and off-ramp in Portland feels like it was tacked on or squeezed in, in the worst possible way. Moreover, the marking of exits is confusing and far too late. For out-of-town drivers it's almost impossible to don't know which side of a freeway will actually keep you on the freeway until you get to a sign, by which time you've already passed a mile of stopped cars in the lane you need to be in. The 26/405 junction heading east on 26, for example, splits the 3-lane highway into 3 exits, only one of which connects to the 405 and later splits into north and south (the other two connect to surface streets). This creates a condition where the center lane is moving fast between two lines of stopped cars, some of whom are anxiously realizing they're in the wrong lane and need to dive into the center, while some people in the center hit the brakes when they realize they need to dive into the stopped cars left or right.
mynegation 3y ago
Do you mean this one: https://maps.app.goo.gl/kF1PuDcgMotp91JR7?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/kF1PuDcgMotp91JR7?g_st=ic I am sure I am missing few details never having driven through it, but looks like pretty standard highway interchange. For comparison, here is the one I navigate regularly and would describe as mildly challenging: https://maps.app.goo.gl/S4zX6rXJt8dpBXig6?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/S4zX6rXJt8dpBXig6?g_st=ic
- davely 3y ago
  Yeah, looking at a map, it looks pretty vanilla and I'm not sure why it had such a notorious reputation at this point. If I recall, I think the original was a cloverleaf design, so in every direction you had people merging on and off in a span of about 300 feet. Ah, yeah. It was renovated in 2007. [1] An LA Times article on its reputation is here. [2] > And there are plenty of accidents. Sgt. Morrison of the California Highway Patrol estimates that his officers respond to about 30 calls a day in and around the interchange. They handle fender-benders, stalled cars and the occasional 20-car pileup. That said, either way, it is pretty vanilla compared to the legit spaghetti mentioned in the article with regard to the Sydney interchange. [1] https://www.caltrop.com/project-details/sr60-sr91-i215-interchange/ https://www.caltrop.com/project-details/sr60-sr91-i215-inter... [2] https://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-freeway21sep21-story.html https://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-freeway21sep21-story.htm...

14u2c 3y ago

From the article it looks like you must pay $11 for pleasure of using this monstrosity as well? Wild.

resolutebat 3y ago
Only if you enter the motorway sections. Through traffic across the interchange is free.

ChatGTP 3y ago

I think it’s really sad Sydney is so car centric now. I remember reading about these projects when first commissioned and it really felt like more rail was a better investment. I took the westconnex on a visit a year or so ago. It was freaking empty. I couldn’t believe it.

chrismsimpson 3y ago
Now? Sydney was built around the notion of the automobile. The country has basically no continental rain to speak of.
- ChatGTP 3y ago
  https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/jul/28/erased-from-history-how-sydney-destroyed-its-trams-for-love-of-the-car https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/jul/28/erase... Not true.
flopsamjetsam 3y ago
I lived in the Inner West (Camperdown and Chippendale) for about 15 years. I felt really lucky that I could walk everywhere (with some effort, and I had reasonable free time) and didn't need a car. It was fun, learning all the routes and being able to see what was going on in all the suburbs around me. I was also lucky that I was pretty near a main road (Paramatta Rd) and buses were easy to catch. I moved away a few years ago to a much smaller city (Canberra), and find it's actually more car-centric than where I lived in Sydney, which is a shame. I also see my co-workers (still in Sydney) who have transportation centred around their car, although about half commute via public transport.
- hilbert42 3y ago
  "...Canberra), and find it's actually more car-centric than where I lived in Sydney, which is a shame." I don't live in Canberra but from my many visits there my experience is that it's harder to go from A to B there than in Sydney (and Sydney is no shining light when it comes to getting about). That said, Burley Griffin's planning and layout for Canberra is a delight when compared to Sydney's dogleg-like haphazardness. Thus, it's likely that Canberra's openness makes getting about more difficult but there are probably other factors that locals are more aware of than I am. I suppose I am sensitive to issue because for a period I lived and worked in Europe and my main base there was Vienna. Getting around Vienna is simply a dream when compared to either Sydney or Canberra and I put this down to the way the Straßenbahn (tram) and U-Bahn transport networks work in that they are tightly coupled together in ways that facilitate the easy movement of people. Somehow, despite the fact that Vienna is a very old city with for the most part very narrow streets, the Viennese have installed a transport network that works extraordinarily well in the circumstances. (I would concede however the city had one advantage in that the old city walls were demolished in the last quarter of the 19th Century which made way for a ring road (Ringstraße) which greatly aids public transport.) But the Ringstraße was only part of the solution. The main issue, not only in Vienna but in many other European cities is the attitude of city planners. There, much more attention is focused on public transport and it seems this attitude has prevailed for many decades unlike the haphazard planning in Sydney (it's always been a political football here). Some say we can't plan like the Europeans do as we've not the population density and no doubt that's partially true but for some reason their attitude to planning is much more utilitarian and long-term than here. I think this is the key difference. Edit: to be fair I must add that in recent years Sydney's public transport has improved significantly even within confines of its existing infrastructure. Whilst some new rail routes/infrastructure have been added what has noticeably improved is the service, buses and trains are reasonably plentiful and importantly are usually on time. This makes public transport much more attractive.

hilbert42 3y ago

"Spaghetti junction is an understatement, <...> should be barred from working on infrastructure ever again and be made to sit in the corner." First, you're lucky that you no longer live nearish the nightmare, I still have to use The Crescent to get to Balmain or to Victoria Rd and for a year or so I've avoided the area like the plague. You shouldn't be surprised though at the stuff-up, Sydney and NSW is known for its fucked-up road system, and halfhearted and incompetent roadways/transport planning which has dogged the city from its colonial days. For instance, just look at the Eastern Suburbs Railway—why the hell does it terminate at Bondi Junction without going the extra distance to Bondi beach where everyone goes, especially in summer? It not only ought to go there but also complete the circuit across the Eastern Suburbs and end up back on the Southern Line, say at Wolli Creek junction. Sydney hasn't had anyone of sufficient sense and authority since John Bradfield to plan its transport infrastructure with any degree of competence which is a 100 years ago—and even then his broader more comprehensive plans were thwarted by the shortsighted gnomes in Macquarie St (NSW Parliament). For those overseas, Bradfield was primarily instrumental in forcing through the construction of the Sydney Harbour Bridge which is now a world landmark: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bradfield_(engineer) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bradfield_(engineer). Anyone interested in long-term planning should assiduously avoid moving to Sydney at any cost, if you come here then such notions will quickky evaporate and be replaced with feelings of mañana! Incidentally, here it seems fitting to mention a once landmark just down the road from Spaghetti Junction that you may recall: The Crescent is one of the main arterial roads that feed into this junction. At its other end at its intersection with Wigram Road there used to be a high Besser block wall that stopped non-payers from watching trotting at Harold Park, scrawled across it were large graffiti that said The Australian people are bloody-minded sheep. That the graffiti remained there for several decades and that no one—not even the Council—attempted to remove it until the wall was eventually removed for apartments development says something very significant. I always meant to take a photo of it but never got around to doing so. If anyone has a photo of it then I'd dearly love a copy.

bardan 3y ago
I remember that graffiti well from my childhood, although I recall it as "All Australians are bloody minded sheep". In retrospect it's remarkable it was there for so long.