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Yeah, I don't see how windows or mac could ever be considered secure when you can't turn off telemetry and when the systems are closed source and cannot be publ

Yeah, I don't see how windows or mac could ever be considered secure when you can't turn off telemetry and when the systems are closed source and cannot be publicly audited. Linux lets you be as secure as you need to be. The military for example in extreme cases will compile their own hardened version of linux and run it on a custom hardened FPGA soft core. Having that option makes it an actual engineering tool for security vs. a toy imo.

dataflow 3y ago
> I don't see how windows or mac could ever be considered secure when you can't turn off telemetry and when the systems are closed source and cannot be publicly audited. Security != Privacy Imagine home security monitoring your home 24/7. You lose privacy but gain security.
- wizzwizz4 3y ago
  And imagine me monitoring your home. You lose privacy, and I know when you're on holiday and I can rob the place. It matters who's doing the monitoring. With a home security system, it's you – or whoever you've delegated to –, and you chose to set it up; with these operating systems, it's somebody else, and you have little choice in the matter.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    So far Microsoft and Apple haven't robbed anyone, unless you count Apple's RAM and SSD pricing as robbery, which is why many people and companies trust them despite the privacy concerns. Companies and people who also strongly value their privacy, built and host their own on-prem infrastructure.
    - timthelion 3y ago
      Amazon deleted books from people's kindles though.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        And Elon can disable your Tesla if he doesn't like what you're tweeting about it/him.
    - dvfjsdhgfv 3y ago
      > So far Microsoft and Apple haven't robbed anyone That's not the point. The question is, why should they be able to? And it's not about robbing but having total control over your own hardware. Because when the moment comes, you can be sure they will do it. Adobe proved it when they disabled the software their customers in Venezuela used, just like that - because they could.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        > The question is, why should they be able to? And it's not about robbing but having total control over your own hardware. Technically nothing is stopping them from robbing you similar how noting is technically stopping your landlord from robbing you and yet most won't do it because they don't like the idea of going to jail. We enter into an agreement that they won't rob you, and we trust that to the protection you have from the code of law, courts and the state enforcement where you live to protect you from the other party robbing you. Currently in the EU, I see our governments have enough fangs to ensure tech companies won't rob us but those who seek the utmost independence should roll out their own on-prem. >Because when the moment comes, you can be sure they will do it. Then they'll get a class action lawsuit. >Adobe proved it when they disabled the software their customers in Venezuela used, just like that - because they could. Yeah, if you live in a country where the state is weak, companies can easily rob you, but if you live in a place without a functioning government like Venezuela, then Adobe is probably at the bottom of the list of entities who are out to rob you, way behind the government itself and various gangs.
        dvfjsdhgfv 3y ago
        > Yeah, if you live in a country where the state is weak, companies can easily rob you, but if you live in a place without a functioning government like Venezuela, then Adobe is probably at the bottom of the list of entities who are out to rob you, way behind the government itself and various gangs. This is hardly a counter-argument, on the contrary. Imagine being a Venezuelan and already suffering from high inflation rates, social unrest and so on. Now on top of that, you lose access to software you depend on. Again, the point is not "being robbed". The point is that corporations are in control of important pants of your lives when they shouldn't.
- greentea23 3y ago
  Sure, but that's besides the point. What if my risk model means not sending packets under specific controlled circumstances because that would reveal my approximate location? What if the right apple or microsoft engineers were coerced into accessing my data? What if the government I am under becomes malicious and forces apple and microsoft to hack my device? Security can give privacy, but a loss of privacy is always a loss of security.

dataflow 3y ago

> I don't see how windows or mac could ever be considered secure when you can't turn off telemetry and when the systems are closed source and cannot be publicly audited. Security != Privacy Imagine home security monitoring your home 24/7. You lose privacy but gain security.

wizzwizz4 3y ago
And imagine me monitoring your home. You lose privacy, and I know when you're on holiday and I can rob the place. It matters who's doing the monitoring. With a home security system, it's you – or whoever you've delegated to –, and you chose to set it up; with these operating systems, it's somebody else, and you have little choice in the matter.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  So far Microsoft and Apple haven't robbed anyone, unless you count Apple's RAM and SSD pricing as robbery, which is why many people and companies trust them despite the privacy concerns. Companies and people who also strongly value their privacy, built and host their own on-prem infrastructure.
  - timthelion 3y ago
    Amazon deleted books from people's kindles though.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      And Elon can disable your Tesla if he doesn't like what you're tweeting about it/him.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 3y ago
    > So far Microsoft and Apple haven't robbed anyone That's not the point. The question is, why should they be able to? And it's not about robbing but having total control over your own hardware. Because when the moment comes, you can be sure they will do it. Adobe proved it when they disabled the software their customers in Venezuela used, just like that - because they could.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      > The question is, why should they be able to? And it's not about robbing but having total control over your own hardware. Technically nothing is stopping them from robbing you similar how noting is technically stopping your landlord from robbing you and yet most won't do it because they don't like the idea of going to jail. We enter into an agreement that they won't rob you, and we trust that to the protection you have from the code of law, courts and the state enforcement where you live to protect you from the other party robbing you. Currently in the EU, I see our governments have enough fangs to ensure tech companies won't rob us but those who seek the utmost independence should roll out their own on-prem. >Because when the moment comes, you can be sure they will do it. Then they'll get a class action lawsuit. >Adobe proved it when they disabled the software their customers in Venezuela used, just like that - because they could. Yeah, if you live in a country where the state is weak, companies can easily rob you, but if you live in a place without a functioning government like Venezuela, then Adobe is probably at the bottom of the list of entities who are out to rob you, way behind the government itself and various gangs.
      - dvfjsdhgfv 3y ago
        > Yeah, if you live in a country where the state is weak, companies can easily rob you, but if you live in a place without a functioning government like Venezuela, then Adobe is probably at the bottom of the list of entities who are out to rob you, way behind the government itself and various gangs. This is hardly a counter-argument, on the contrary. Imagine being a Venezuelan and already suffering from high inflation rates, social unrest and so on. Now on top of that, you lose access to software you depend on. Again, the point is not "being robbed". The point is that corporations are in control of important pants of your lives when they shouldn't.
greentea23 3y ago
Sure, but that's besides the point. What if my risk model means not sending packets under specific controlled circumstances because that would reveal my approximate location? What if the right apple or microsoft engineers were coerced into accessing my data? What if the government I am under becomes malicious and forces apple and microsoft to hack my device? Security can give privacy, but a loss of privacy is always a loss of security.