6 ms·

Still building 2 a week. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/29/china-coal-plants-climate-goals-carbon https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/29/chin

by rr808 3y ago

Still building 2 a week. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/29/china-coal-plants-climate-goals-carbon https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/29/china-coal-pla...

timbit42 3y ago
China has also built entire cities and never used them.
epistasis 3y ago
Building them isn't so bad. Using them is where it causes problems. What's the trend there?
- rr808 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_China#/media/File:China-electricity-prod-source-stacked.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_China#/m...
  - eigenspace 3y ago
    God that's a depressing graph.
    - RetroTechie 3y ago
      It's not that different from many other countries. Atmospheric CO2 levels are often compared with pre-industrial (~1850). But for a long time after, emissions hardly moved the needle. It's only in the last 2..3 decades that humanity put the bulk of GHG in the air. Mostly through population growth + increased productivity per capita. So we've done the bulk of the environmental damage in just a few decades. Which is why 'hitting the brakes' NOW is so urgent. On the bright side: with fast enough growth (which China is showing) a now-smallish % of renewables can become a big chunk of the overall picture in a short time.
  - epistasis 3y ago
    Here's a different view of the same data that shows the trends better than stacked plots obscured by a massive growth trend: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-energy-source-sub https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-energy-source-sub China says it will peak in 2030, but I suspect it will peak sooner than that, based on these trends
    - eigenspace 3y ago
      That's an incredibly misleading graph because it shows percentages, whereas the total energy consumption of China is growing like crazy. They can have a falling percentage of coal use, while still having a growing coal usage. Here is the non-stacked chart of electricity production by source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-production-by-source https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-production-by... It does not look good.
      - epistasis 3y ago
        If you want to know quantities emitted currently and up to now, your graph was great. But I didn't ask about that, I asked about the trend, so in fact you replied to me with a misrepresentation. It was highly inaccurate, and to see you sling around accusations feels a tiny bit rude after what you're posted. The graph I posted is better for recognizing the trend, where things will be in the future. Is goal a growing or shrinking component of the energy mix? Shrinking. Absolutes do matter, but so do trends. And if we are talking about the future, the trends matter more than the absolutes of the current.
        eigenspace 3y ago
        > if you want to know quantities emitted currently and up to now, your graph was great. No, my graph would not be very useful for that. For that, you'd want the area under those curves, i.e. the sum of all historical emissions. My curve is just showing how much electricity in a given year is produced by which source. Total energy usage in China is growing very fast, and Coal is a big part of that. > But I didn't ask about that, I asked about the trend, so in fact you replied to me with a misrepresentation. No actually, the trend is that China's usage of coal is widespread and growing very fast. Showing that the percentage of coal in their electricity mix is stable or shrinking only shows that the *acceleration* of coal usage in China is stable or negative, even if the trend is increasing usage.

by rr808 3y ago

Still building 2 a week. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/29/china-coal-plants-climate-goals-carbon https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/29/china-coal-pla...

timbit42 3y ago

China has also built entire cities and never used them.

epistasis 3y ago

Building them isn't so bad. Using them is where it causes problems. What's the trend there?

rr808 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_China#/media/File:China-electricity-prod-source-stacked.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_China#/m...
- eigenspace 3y ago
  God that's a depressing graph.
  - RetroTechie 3y ago
    It's not that different from many other countries. Atmospheric CO2 levels are often compared with pre-industrial (~1850). But for a long time after, emissions hardly moved the needle. It's only in the last 2..3 decades that humanity put the bulk of GHG in the air. Mostly through population growth + increased productivity per capita. So we've done the bulk of the environmental damage in just a few decades. Which is why 'hitting the brakes' NOW is so urgent. On the bright side: with fast enough growth (which China is showing) a now-smallish % of renewables can become a big chunk of the overall picture in a short time.
- epistasis 3y ago
  Here's a different view of the same data that shows the trends better than stacked plots obscured by a massive growth trend: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-energy-source-sub https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-energy-source-sub China says it will peak in 2030, but I suspect it will peak sooner than that, based on these trends
  - eigenspace 3y ago
    That's an incredibly misleading graph because it shows percentages, whereas the total energy consumption of China is growing like crazy. They can have a falling percentage of coal use, while still having a growing coal usage. Here is the non-stacked chart of electricity production by source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-production-by-source https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-production-by... It does not look good.
    - epistasis 3y ago
      If you want to know quantities emitted currently and up to now, your graph was great. But I didn't ask about that, I asked about the trend, so in fact you replied to me with a misrepresentation. It was highly inaccurate, and to see you sling around accusations feels a tiny bit rude after what you're posted. The graph I posted is better for recognizing the trend, where things will be in the future. Is goal a growing or shrinking component of the energy mix? Shrinking. Absolutes do matter, but so do trends. And if we are talking about the future, the trends matter more than the absolutes of the current.
      - eigenspace 3y ago
        > if you want to know quantities emitted currently and up to now, your graph was great. No, my graph would not be very useful for that. For that, you'd want the area under those curves, i.e. the sum of all historical emissions. My curve is just showing how much electricity in a given year is produced by which source. Total energy usage in China is growing very fast, and Coal is a big part of that. > But I didn't ask about that, I asked about the trend, so in fact you replied to me with a misrepresentation. No actually, the trend is that China's usage of coal is widespread and growing very fast. Showing that the percentage of coal in their electricity mix is stable or shrinking only shows that the *acceleration* of coal usage in China is stable or negative, even if the trend is increasing usage.