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Assuming the density of superchargers and other comparable infrastructure can/does increase this feels basically fair. I assume this is a nose under the door fo

Assuming the density of superchargers and other comparable infrastructure can/does increase this feels basically fair. I assume this is a nose under the door for all other forms of junk fees and in and of itself will be abused long-term, but as is there does have to be some long term management of the long tail of charging.

plagiarist 3y ago
Could not agree more. This seems pretty reasonable, but I scoffed reading this part of the article: > Eventually this problem will mostly go away as they add more chargers. Maybe the problem will go away but the fees will likely remain and be joined by others. Electric vehicle fueling seems like one area to be absolutely principled about avoiding vendor lock-in.
- notyofriend 3y ago
  Tesla has a monopoly on working electric car charging infrastructure. There are other chargers out there but all the others work poorly
  - euroderf 3y ago
    So what is the key to Tesla's competence in maintenance, that the rest of the chargers (and most of the American economy) cannot seem to fathom ?
    - supportengineer 3y ago
      From a leadership point of view all it takes is someone at the top saying this will be done. Making Supercharger monitoring and maintenance a priority. As opposed to MBAs seeing it as a cost center to cut against.
      - bdcravens 3y ago
        Only one data point, but when I did a long road trip, I encountered a tech at an Electrify America station. He told me they tend to only make servicing a station a top priority when none of the stalls are working. Otherwise, broken stalls are put into a queue for service.
        notyofriend 3y ago
        They Usally only have 2-4 stalls so it can happen pretty quickly
  - bdcravens 3y ago
    Is this based on anecdotal evidence or personal experience? There are charging stations that work poorly, but many of them work well. Bigger issue is cars/charger among non-Teslas.
  - bhpm 3y ago
    “Monopoly” is a bit strong. They’re the market leader because they’ve excelled at it. What anti-competitive tactics have they used?
    - mensetmanusman 3y ago
      They are a natural monopoly; nothing wrong with dominating and providing the best value, but we note when monopolies occur because bureaucracies tend to naturally exploit them.
      - bhpm 3y ago
        Monopoly by what metric? What’s the difference between being a market leader and a monopoly? Investopedia defines a natural monopoly like this: “A natural monopoly is a type of monopoly in an industry or sector with high barriers to entry and start-up costs that prevent any rivals from competing.” But there are many rivals to Tesla in this space. ChargePoint, ElectrifyAmerica, and even a start-up called Volta that does free ad-supported EV charging. Shell bought them earlier this year. KBB lists a ton more, including regional ones: https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/ev-charging-networks-list/ https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/ev-charging-networks-list/
        notyofriend 3y ago
        Tesla locked in most teslas into their own network for one. Its theoretically possible to use another one but it would be difficult and cumbersome
        bhpm 3y ago
        The J1772 Adapter is included with every Tesla vehicle delivery. It’s not just theoretically possible to use another one, it’s literally enabled by the manufacturer themselves. The adapter locks into place on the vehicle. You could leave it there permanently if you wanted to.
  - clouddrover 3y ago
    > There are other chargers out there but all the others work poorly No. The best chargers are manufactured by Alpitronic and Kempower. If you want to see EV infrastructure done right you need to look at Europe. North America's EV infrastructure is a basket case in comparison. Alpitronic 400 kW charger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4ZWN_-a2j4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4ZWN_-a2j4 Alpitronic 300 kW chargers two years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TVohXHjLro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TVohXHjLro Kempower 400 kW charger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR2M5W6saAk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR2M5W6saAk Europe's plan to further improve EV charging: https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/fast-chargers-every-60-km-key-eu-motorways?a=FJA05&t%5B0%5D=Charging&curl=1 https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/f...
- bArray 3y ago
  > Maybe the problem will go away but the fees will likely remain and be joined by others. It will only get worse as more people switch to electric vehicles. Currently the only real limitation is physical chargers. At some point it will also be the electrical grid, and other issues.
  - plagiarist 3y ago
    Oh, like the grid would get overwhelmed? Yeah could be like you get charged peak rates based on time of day instead of based on wherever oil futures are at.
    - bArray 3y ago
      > Oh, like the grid would get overwhelmed? As one of the problems yes. There could be quite a few others too. > Yeah could be like you get charged peak rates based on time of day instead of based on wherever oil futures are at. Sure, but also system load, temperature, energy production method used, some form of green energy tax, etc. Before you know it your "cheap to fill up" is filled with a lottery of micro taxes.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
fnordpiglet 3y ago
At least in the seattle area it doesn’t feel like the supercharger density is keeping up with sales of cars. AFAIK there have only been super chargers built around the periphery of the region in the last few years and many existing chargers are older lower power chargers. The east side (Bellevue, Redmond, etc), which has a HUGE EV following, with Teslas everywhere, has precisely zero super chargers. We happen to live near one of the few high power super chargers in the entire region. Three years ago there were always charge spots. Now there are often 6-10 cars waiting for a charger in a parking lot not designed for queuing. I see anger and rage regularly, and I would wager sooner or later there will be fights and maybe worse. The $1 fee feels fine to me, though. It’s a rare need to go to 100%, it’s not great for the batteries themselves, and that last 10% can be the majority of the charge time. I do wonder how they will handle cars like mine with free supercharging for the life of the car. We don’t even have a credit card registered with Tesla.
- filoleg 3y ago
  > The east side (Bellevue, Redmond, etc), which has a HUGE EV following, with Teslas everywhere, has precisely zero super chargers. What are you talking about? I literally used one yesterday in Bellevue downtown, iirc it was built at some point during the beginning of Covid. Just checked the supercharger map to confirm, and there are also superchargers in Issaquah and Bothell available.
  - fnordpiglet 3y ago
    Oh I didn’t realize the Pay 2 Park location was a supercharger. It’s pretty low power (72Kw) and the label (Pay 2 Park) confused me thinking it was a destination charger. However bothell and issaquah are a good 20 min drive, and 8 72Kw stalls for the entire Kirkland, Redmond, Bellevue, Mercer, New Castle region is crazy. It’s not like there’s no lack of parking lots in these areas, and there’s absolutely a critical mass. I’d note Bothell and issaquah are also 72Kw chargers, Lynnwood and Northgate are the only north east seattle metro area 250 chargers. Edit: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/forums/northwest-supercharger-locations.372/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/forums/northwest-supercharge... Looks like quite a few new locations breaking ground including in Kirkland and Bellevue.

plagiarist 3y ago

Could not agree more. This seems pretty reasonable, but I scoffed reading this part of the article: > Eventually this problem will mostly go away as they add more chargers. Maybe the problem will go away but the fees will likely remain and be joined by others. Electric vehicle fueling seems like one area to be absolutely principled about avoiding vendor lock-in.

notyofriend 3y ago
Tesla has a monopoly on working electric car charging infrastructure. There are other chargers out there but all the others work poorly
- euroderf 3y ago
  So what is the key to Tesla's competence in maintenance, that the rest of the chargers (and most of the American economy) cannot seem to fathom ?
  - supportengineer 3y ago
    From a leadership point of view all it takes is someone at the top saying this will be done. Making Supercharger monitoring and maintenance a priority. As opposed to MBAs seeing it as a cost center to cut against.
    - bdcravens 3y ago
      Only one data point, but when I did a long road trip, I encountered a tech at an Electrify America station. He told me they tend to only make servicing a station a top priority when none of the stalls are working. Otherwise, broken stalls are put into a queue for service.
      - notyofriend 3y ago
        They Usally only have 2-4 stalls so it can happen pretty quickly
- bdcravens 3y ago
  Is this based on anecdotal evidence or personal experience? There are charging stations that work poorly, but many of them work well. Bigger issue is cars/charger among non-Teslas.
- bhpm 3y ago
  “Monopoly” is a bit strong. They’re the market leader because they’ve excelled at it. What anti-competitive tactics have they used?
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
    They are a natural monopoly; nothing wrong with dominating and providing the best value, but we note when monopolies occur because bureaucracies tend to naturally exploit them.
    - bhpm 3y ago
      Monopoly by what metric? What’s the difference between being a market leader and a monopoly? Investopedia defines a natural monopoly like this: “A natural monopoly is a type of monopoly in an industry or sector with high barriers to entry and start-up costs that prevent any rivals from competing.” But there are many rivals to Tesla in this space. ChargePoint, ElectrifyAmerica, and even a start-up called Volta that does free ad-supported EV charging. Shell bought them earlier this year. KBB lists a ton more, including regional ones: https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/ev-charging-networks-list/ https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/ev-charging-networks-list/
      - notyofriend 3y ago
        Tesla locked in most teslas into their own network for one. Its theoretically possible to use another one but it would be difficult and cumbersome
        bhpm 3y ago
        The J1772 Adapter is included with every Tesla vehicle delivery. It’s not just theoretically possible to use another one, it’s literally enabled by the manufacturer themselves. The adapter locks into place on the vehicle. You could leave it there permanently if you wanted to.
- clouddrover 3y ago
  > There are other chargers out there but all the others work poorly No. The best chargers are manufactured by Alpitronic and Kempower. If you want to see EV infrastructure done right you need to look at Europe. North America's EV infrastructure is a basket case in comparison. Alpitronic 400 kW charger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4ZWN_-a2j4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4ZWN_-a2j4 Alpitronic 300 kW chargers two years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TVohXHjLro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TVohXHjLro Kempower 400 kW charger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR2M5W6saAk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR2M5W6saAk Europe's plan to further improve EV charging: https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/fast-chargers-every-60-km-key-eu-motorways?a=FJA05&t%5B0%5D=Charging&curl=1 https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/f...
bArray 3y ago
> Maybe the problem will go away but the fees will likely remain and be joined by others. It will only get worse as more people switch to electric vehicles. Currently the only real limitation is physical chargers. At some point it will also be the electrical grid, and other issues.
- plagiarist 3y ago
  Oh, like the grid would get overwhelmed? Yeah could be like you get charged peak rates based on time of day instead of based on wherever oil futures are at.
  - bArray 3y ago
    > Oh, like the grid would get overwhelmed? As one of the problems yes. There could be quite a few others too. > Yeah could be like you get charged peak rates based on time of day instead of based on wherever oil futures are at. Sure, but also system load, temperature, energy production method used, some form of green energy tax, etc. Before you know it your "cheap to fill up" is filled with a lottery of micro taxes.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

fnordpiglet 3y ago

At least in the seattle area it doesn’t feel like the supercharger density is keeping up with sales of cars. AFAIK there have only been super chargers built around the periphery of the region in the last few years and many existing chargers are older lower power chargers. The east side (Bellevue, Redmond, etc), which has a HUGE EV following, with Teslas everywhere, has precisely zero super chargers. We happen to live near one of the few high power super chargers in the entire region. Three years ago there were always charge spots. Now there are often 6-10 cars waiting for a charger in a parking lot not designed for queuing. I see anger and rage regularly, and I would wager sooner or later there will be fights and maybe worse. The $1 fee feels fine to me, though. It’s a rare need to go to 100%, it’s not great for the batteries themselves, and that last 10% can be the majority of the charge time. I do wonder how they will handle cars like mine with free supercharging for the life of the car. We don’t even have a credit card registered with Tesla.

filoleg 3y ago
> The east side (Bellevue, Redmond, etc), which has a HUGE EV following, with Teslas everywhere, has precisely zero super chargers. What are you talking about? I literally used one yesterday in Bellevue downtown, iirc it was built at some point during the beginning of Covid. Just checked the supercharger map to confirm, and there are also superchargers in Issaquah and Bothell available.
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  Oh I didn’t realize the Pay 2 Park location was a supercharger. It’s pretty low power (72Kw) and the label (Pay 2 Park) confused me thinking it was a destination charger. However bothell and issaquah are a good 20 min drive, and 8 72Kw stalls for the entire Kirkland, Redmond, Bellevue, Mercer, New Castle region is crazy. It’s not like there’s no lack of parking lots in these areas, and there’s absolutely a critical mass. I’d note Bothell and issaquah are also 72Kw chargers, Lynnwood and Northgate are the only north east seattle metro area 250 chargers. Edit: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/forums/northwest-supercharger-locations.372/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/forums/northwest-supercharge... Looks like quite a few new locations breaking ground including in Kirkland and Bellevue.