8 ms·

This is a cool infrastructure project, but they really need to sort out ticketing.. Everyone else has adopted contactless EMV with capping, but in Paris they're

by lol768 3y ago

This is a cool infrastructure project, but they really need to sort out ticketing.. Everyone else has adopted contactless EMV with capping, but in Paris they're only introducing the equivalent to London's Oyster (which frankly is a legacy ticketing system in itself and was introduced back in June 2003; over twenty years ago) now in the form of Navigo Easy for tourists. When I last visited, the t+ tickets were paper magstripe tickets that I could only buy using a terminal which required chip+pin and didn't have a proper touch screen but some weird roller you had to use..

totololo 3y ago
In Singapore, tap your Visa/Mastercard to get in, tap it to get out, they do the Math and charge you. So simple and effective!
paganel 3y ago
Those paper tickets are great for anonymity. In most of the cases those contactless thingies give your identity away each time you use them.
- seabass-labrax 3y ago
  Paper tickets might be good for anonymity, but that can't be guaranteed. I haven't used the ones for Paris, but many have a unique code printed on the ticket that could be linked with the bank that you used to purchase it through. One would need to buy the ticket with cash to guarantee anonymity, and that itself only with the assumption that 'out-of-band' information isn't obtained (for example, from surveillance cameras or unique identifiers on the cash). It is possible to have fully digital ticketing with complete anonymity (again, assuming no external surveillance) using zero-knowledge proofs. As far as I'm aware, no such systems have been implemented for ticketing yet, but rapid progress is being made in implementing these for general-purpose digital identity situations. There's also the much more pedestrian^ option, used for instance in Brussels, where the transport company simply promises not to track individuals even when it would be possible for them to do just that. That said, in Brussels I personally got the impression that a large proportion of passengers did not present tickets when entering a bus or tram, and indeed the Brussels Metro trains don't require that anyway. Thus tracking of individuals' movements would be quickly thwarted by apathy on the part of passengers! ^: not the most pedestrian option, naturally.
  - magic123_ 3y ago
    You can buy paper tickets with cash at any metro station in Paris.
    - nerdbert 3y ago
      If you're willing to queue for 20 minutes.
  - handity 3y ago
    Anonymity cannot be guaranteed, but between the two options, the phone or reusable card based version is guaranteed to invade your privacy to a much larger extent. At worst, a paper ticket can reveal your location when you buy it, when you start a journey, and possibly when you transfer or end a journey. It's already a close to ideal system: it provides proof of the right to travel in the event of a ticket control, without needing to reveal your identity, destination, past or future journeys, home address, phone number, banking details, or any other extra info. Out of band info exists in either case. A phone app, which is what everything trends towards and seemingly what most people want to use, almost certainly has access to enough information from your device to uniquely identify you. The default will be to ask for your location, and most will grant it. Now the app knows who you are, where you live, exactly when you travel, who with, to what destinations, etc. The trend is always towards more surveillance. Regardless of what is technically possible, digital will always struggle to achieve the levels of privacy and anonymity that are trivial with century old technology. I grew up with the paper tickets, and remember being jealous of people with a Navigo. They could go through the gates so fast, and the contactless tech and little "bling" sound the gate makes when they touch in seemed so futuristic and cool! I never thought I'd come to see the paper tickets as almost too good to be true. That they have survived this long feels like a glitch in history, and in a rapidly evolving world they're a strong reminder of what's being lost.
    - Too 3y ago
      No gates = No tracking. Some cities in Germany do this. Instead they do regular ticket inspection with high fines. Makes for much smoother entry and exit to the stations and making the metro feel part of the city.
gwervc 3y ago
> that I could only buy using a terminal which required chip+pin Some machine have contactless payment support, it's indicated on them. Sure it would be better to have more but the option exists at last, and I guess more equipment will be upgraded in the future. If anything this is the smallest issue with the subway and the capital in general.
glandium 3y ago
Navigo has had an anonymous version for at least 15 years. Navigo itself is older than Oyster.
- lol768 3y ago
  And how long have you been able to load daily tickets?
  - uxp8u61q 3y ago
    So what, this is about your grievance that stopped being relevant back in 2019?
    - lol768 3y ago
      My point is that the entire offering has lagged behind what I'd expect in terms of ticketing from such a major European city. TfL don't even do a particularly good job at what they do, but they at least get some of the basics right. Maybe Paris will support iPhones properly and get contactless working in 2030, at this rate?
gryn 3y ago
T+ ticket are officially phased out right now, but for some reason still work. You can install their app to buy and use electronic tickets or a temporary card where you can store electronic ticket.
- uxp8u61q 3y ago
  The app is incompatible with tons of phones. I have a pixel 4a, hardly an obscure or ancient phone, and for some reason it's not compatible with the app.
  - jakub_g 3y ago
    Yup this is really bizarre. No iOS support at all, and Google Pixels only from Pixel 5. (for storing the tickets on the device).
    - progval 3y ago
      And they block rooted phones
  - BrandoElFollito 3y ago
    is or was? There used to be a time when you had to have a Samsung phone and be on the Orange telecom provider. My wife has a Pixel and is with Bouygues and it works. My son has a Xiaomi and is with Free and it works.
- lol768 3y ago
  > You can install their app to buy and use electronic tickets Does this work on iPhone now?
  - jeromenerf 3y ago
    Early 2024 :/
  - ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
    You can use an iPhone to reload a Navigo card, but you cannot use it by itself.
xkekjrktllss 3y ago
The NYC metro pass system has all of those exact same issues. I find it frankly absurd to be nitpicking such details in the face of such an accomplishment.
- lol768 3y ago
  > The NYC metro pass system has all of those exact same issues I wouldn't expect anything else from an American attempt at a public transport (sorry, "public transit") system, unfortunately. Sadly it seems like a very car-centric culture has taken hold in the states which has stifled investment and innovation when it comes to public transport. OMNY will eventually fix things using tech 'borrowed' from Oyster when it's fully rolled out (which must be soon), but until then it seems like a poor system. > I find it frankly absurd to be nitpicking such details in the face of such an accomplishment. The whole customer proposition is important; not just the infrastructure. I am sure the Elizabeth Line in London wouldn't have seen the adoption it has (well in excess of predictions) without an easy-to-use fares system.
- milkshakes 3y ago
  what? omni is everywhere and it works great. transfers, weekly caps (slightly less benefits than a weekly pass but still). what is your issue with nyc subway exactly?
- wombat-man 3y ago
  NYC now accepts tap cards and apple pay if you want to avoid the metro card. It also stops charging you after your 12th ride of the calendar week
- wenc 3y ago
  Not sure what you mean. OMNY has contactless and fare capping. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMNY https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMNY I use Apple Express Transit on my Apple Watch with the NY MTA. I just tap my wrist and the turnstile unlocks. Also it caps at $34 in a 7 day period. https://new.mta.info/fares/omny-fare-capping https://new.mta.info/fares/omny-fare-capping
maeln 3y ago
You can use your phone with nfc now.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
jonathantf2 3y ago
We went for a week in February and couldn't find a single place that had the Navigo Easy cards in stock - the paper tickets were awful and wouldn't work straight out of the vending machine, ended up wasting a lot of money.
BrandoElFollito 3y ago
They also need to simplify the tickets structure. It is great from obvious which ticket to buy when you are outside of Paris. And when I write "they", it is from the perspective of a native of Versailles who still has to think hard when looking at the web site in his own language. I cannot imagine for a tourist. Maybe this has improved (I hope so) but everytime someone visited, I had to do a new PhD in ticketology.
- pas 3y ago
  it was still bad 2 weeks ago. not to mention that we managed to buy a return ticket for CDG "for nothing". because on Sunday morning that part of RER B was not running due to some scheduled work, and the replacement bus ran once every hour, which we missed by a few minutes (because we spent time buying and eating fresh croissants, yes, whahah! but were also completely unaware that we really should go to catch that bus ...), so we had to get a taxi. oh, and we managed to get trapped at the Versailles station, because we had no idea that the ticket we bought for Zone1-4 was "dans" Paris. whatever that means. of course we got a very stereotypical pointing out by the otherwise kind station attendant :D oh and the BigMacs in Paris are the best so far I had in Europe... how? and why? and what's the secret!? oh, and no bed bugs. (so far. fingers crossed.)
  - baud147258 3y ago
    > oh, and we managed to get trapped at the Versailles station, because we had no idea that the ticket we bought for Zone1-4 was "dans" Paris. Weird, because any of the 5 train stations in Versailles should be in zone 4 and you shouldn't had any issue to leave the station... Though honestly, I feel like there's a bunch of things that aren't clear with the RATP system, especially for people who aren't local.
  - Probiotic6081 3y ago
    >and the replacement bus ran once every hour, which we missed by a few minutes (because we spent time buying and eating fresh croissants, yes, whahah! but were also completely unaware that we really should go to catch that bus ...), so we had to get a taxi. YTA here bud, if you had spent less time on the pastries you wouldn't of missed the bus!
pkd 3y ago
I was able to install the app to buy rolls of tickets (actually heavily discounted on the app vs in person) and use the app via NFC to pay. Never had to deal with paper tickets outside of the airport.
lta 3y ago
I don't live in Paris anymore but the last time I went you could use your phone very easily to buy and use tickets. The paper thing is a legacy super thing as older people are not familiar with it, bit all means of buying transport have a digital option afaict
- nerdbert 3y ago
  I'd say "easy" is an overstatement. You have to install an app and master their weird terminology (to get a reasonable price you buy a "carnet" of 10 tickets). And of course it still only works with Android. Easy would be following what's being done in major transit systems all over the world: Let people immediately pay for rides without installing or thinking about anything, by tapping their phone on the turnstile. And for a bonus, adopt TfL's fare capping so people don't have to try to game the various discount options.
- Nextgrid 3y ago
  Tickets are a relic of the past as a workaround because managing the (back-then exclusively physical) money at each fare collection point was impractical. Nowadays money is no longer physical for the vast majority of users (instead cards/phones are used), so there is no need for tickets anymore as managing an EMV transaction is just as easy as some internal ticketing operation (in both cases you'd need a network-connected computer).
FireBeyond 3y ago
> didn't have a proper touch screen but some weird roller you had to use.. Touch screens which can handle vandalism and the elements and not need calibration are not as easy as just using a roller ball to go through elements.

by lol768 3y ago

totololo 3y ago

In Singapore, tap your Visa/Mastercard to get in, tap it to get out, they do the Math and charge you. So simple and effective!

paganel 3y ago

Those paper tickets are great for anonymity. In most of the cases those contactless thingies give your identity away each time you use them.

seabass-labrax 3y ago
Paper tickets might be good for anonymity, but that can't be guaranteed. I haven't used the ones for Paris, but many have a unique code printed on the ticket that could be linked with the bank that you used to purchase it through. One would need to buy the ticket with cash to guarantee anonymity, and that itself only with the assumption that 'out-of-band' information isn't obtained (for example, from surveillance cameras or unique identifiers on the cash). It is possible to have fully digital ticketing with complete anonymity (again, assuming no external surveillance) using zero-knowledge proofs. As far as I'm aware, no such systems have been implemented for ticketing yet, but rapid progress is being made in implementing these for general-purpose digital identity situations. There's also the much more pedestrian^ option, used for instance in Brussels, where the transport company simply promises not to track individuals even when it would be possible for them to do just that. That said, in Brussels I personally got the impression that a large proportion of passengers did not present tickets when entering a bus or tram, and indeed the Brussels Metro trains don't require that anyway. Thus tracking of individuals' movements would be quickly thwarted by apathy on the part of passengers! ^: not the most pedestrian option, naturally.
- magic123_ 3y ago
  You can buy paper tickets with cash at any metro station in Paris.
  - nerdbert 3y ago
    If you're willing to queue for 20 minutes.
- handity 3y ago
  Anonymity cannot be guaranteed, but between the two options, the phone or reusable card based version is guaranteed to invade your privacy to a much larger extent. At worst, a paper ticket can reveal your location when you buy it, when you start a journey, and possibly when you transfer or end a journey. It's already a close to ideal system: it provides proof of the right to travel in the event of a ticket control, without needing to reveal your identity, destination, past or future journeys, home address, phone number, banking details, or any other extra info. Out of band info exists in either case. A phone app, which is what everything trends towards and seemingly what most people want to use, almost certainly has access to enough information from your device to uniquely identify you. The default will be to ask for your location, and most will grant it. Now the app knows who you are, where you live, exactly when you travel, who with, to what destinations, etc. The trend is always towards more surveillance. Regardless of what is technically possible, digital will always struggle to achieve the levels of privacy and anonymity that are trivial with century old technology. I grew up with the paper tickets, and remember being jealous of people with a Navigo. They could go through the gates so fast, and the contactless tech and little "bling" sound the gate makes when they touch in seemed so futuristic and cool! I never thought I'd come to see the paper tickets as almost too good to be true. That they have survived this long feels like a glitch in history, and in a rapidly evolving world they're a strong reminder of what's being lost.
  - Too 3y ago
    No gates = No tracking. Some cities in Germany do this. Instead they do regular ticket inspection with high fines. Makes for much smoother entry and exit to the stations and making the metro feel part of the city.

gwervc 3y ago

> that I could only buy using a terminal which required chip+pin Some machine have contactless payment support, it's indicated on them. Sure it would be better to have more but the option exists at last, and I guess more equipment will be upgraded in the future. If anything this is the smallest issue with the subway and the capital in general.

glandium 3y ago

Navigo has had an anonymous version for at least 15 years. Navigo itself is older than Oyster.

lol768 3y ago
And how long have you been able to load daily tickets?
- uxp8u61q 3y ago
  So what, this is about your grievance that stopped being relevant back in 2019?
  - lol768 3y ago
    My point is that the entire offering has lagged behind what I'd expect in terms of ticketing from such a major European city. TfL don't even do a particularly good job at what they do, but they at least get some of the basics right. Maybe Paris will support iPhones properly and get contactless working in 2030, at this rate?

gryn 3y ago

T+ ticket are officially phased out right now, but for some reason still work. You can install their app to buy and use electronic tickets or a temporary card where you can store electronic ticket.

uxp8u61q 3y ago
The app is incompatible with tons of phones. I have a pixel 4a, hardly an obscure or ancient phone, and for some reason it's not compatible with the app.
- jakub_g 3y ago
  Yup this is really bizarre. No iOS support at all, and Google Pixels only from Pixel 5. (for storing the tickets on the device).
  - progval 3y ago
    And they block rooted phones
- BrandoElFollito 3y ago
  is or was? There used to be a time when you had to have a Samsung phone and be on the Orange telecom provider. My wife has a Pixel and is with Bouygues and it works. My son has a Xiaomi and is with Free and it works.
lol768 3y ago
> You can install their app to buy and use electronic tickets Does this work on iPhone now?
- jeromenerf 3y ago
  Early 2024 :/
- ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
  You can use an iPhone to reload a Navigo card, but you cannot use it by itself.

xkekjrktllss 3y ago

The NYC metro pass system has all of those exact same issues. I find it frankly absurd to be nitpicking such details in the face of such an accomplishment.

lol768 3y ago
> The NYC metro pass system has all of those exact same issues I wouldn't expect anything else from an American attempt at a public transport (sorry, "public transit") system, unfortunately. Sadly it seems like a very car-centric culture has taken hold in the states which has stifled investment and innovation when it comes to public transport. OMNY will eventually fix things using tech 'borrowed' from Oyster when it's fully rolled out (which must be soon), but until then it seems like a poor system. > I find it frankly absurd to be nitpicking such details in the face of such an accomplishment. The whole customer proposition is important; not just the infrastructure. I am sure the Elizabeth Line in London wouldn't have seen the adoption it has (well in excess of predictions) without an easy-to-use fares system.
milkshakes 3y ago
what? omni is everywhere and it works great. transfers, weekly caps (slightly less benefits than a weekly pass but still). what is your issue with nyc subway exactly?
wombat-man 3y ago
NYC now accepts tap cards and apple pay if you want to avoid the metro card. It also stops charging you after your 12th ride of the calendar week
wenc 3y ago
Not sure what you mean. OMNY has contactless and fare capping. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMNY https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMNY I use Apple Express Transit on my Apple Watch with the NY MTA. I just tap my wrist and the turnstile unlocks. Also it caps at $34 in a 7 day period. https://new.mta.info/fares/omny-fare-capping https://new.mta.info/fares/omny-fare-capping

maeln 3y ago

You can use your phone with nfc now.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

jonathantf2 3y ago

We went for a week in February and couldn't find a single place that had the Navigo Easy cards in stock - the paper tickets were awful and wouldn't work straight out of the vending machine, ended up wasting a lot of money.

BrandoElFollito 3y ago

They also need to simplify the tickets structure. It is great from obvious which ticket to buy when you are outside of Paris. And when I write "they", it is from the perspective of a native of Versailles who still has to think hard when looking at the web site in his own language. I cannot imagine for a tourist. Maybe this has improved (I hope so) but everytime someone visited, I had to do a new PhD in ticketology.

pas 3y ago
it was still bad 2 weeks ago. not to mention that we managed to buy a return ticket for CDG "for nothing". because on Sunday morning that part of RER B was not running due to some scheduled work, and the replacement bus ran once every hour, which we missed by a few minutes (because we spent time buying and eating fresh croissants, yes, whahah! but were also completely unaware that we really should go to catch that bus ...), so we had to get a taxi. oh, and we managed to get trapped at the Versailles station, because we had no idea that the ticket we bought for Zone1-4 was "dans" Paris. whatever that means. of course we got a very stereotypical pointing out by the otherwise kind station attendant :D oh and the BigMacs in Paris are the best so far I had in Europe... how? and why? and what's the secret!? oh, and no bed bugs. (so far. fingers crossed.)
- baud147258 3y ago
  > oh, and we managed to get trapped at the Versailles station, because we had no idea that the ticket we bought for Zone1-4 was "dans" Paris. Weird, because any of the 5 train stations in Versailles should be in zone 4 and you shouldn't had any issue to leave the station... Though honestly, I feel like there's a bunch of things that aren't clear with the RATP system, especially for people who aren't local.
- Probiotic6081 3y ago
  >and the replacement bus ran once every hour, which we missed by a few minutes (because we spent time buying and eating fresh croissants, yes, whahah! but were also completely unaware that we really should go to catch that bus ...), so we had to get a taxi. YTA here bud, if you had spent less time on the pastries you wouldn't of missed the bus!

pkd 3y ago

I was able to install the app to buy rolls of tickets (actually heavily discounted on the app vs in person) and use the app via NFC to pay. Never had to deal with paper tickets outside of the airport.

lta 3y ago

I don't live in Paris anymore but the last time I went you could use your phone very easily to buy and use tickets. The paper thing is a legacy super thing as older people are not familiar with it, bit all means of buying transport have a digital option afaict

nerdbert 3y ago
I'd say "easy" is an overstatement. You have to install an app and master their weird terminology (to get a reasonable price you buy a "carnet" of 10 tickets). And of course it still only works with Android. Easy would be following what's being done in major transit systems all over the world: Let people immediately pay for rides without installing or thinking about anything, by tapping their phone on the turnstile. And for a bonus, adopt TfL's fare capping so people don't have to try to game the various discount options.
Nextgrid 3y ago
Tickets are a relic of the past as a workaround because managing the (back-then exclusively physical) money at each fare collection point was impractical. Nowadays money is no longer physical for the vast majority of users (instead cards/phones are used), so there is no need for tickets anymore as managing an EMV transaction is just as easy as some internal ticketing operation (in both cases you'd need a network-connected computer).

FireBeyond 3y ago

> didn't have a proper touch screen but some weird roller you had to use.. Touch screens which can handle vandalism and the elements and not need calibration are not as easy as just using a roller ball to go through elements.