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Let's focus on trying to raise a mentally healthier generation and take mental illness more seriously, rather than banning / getting rid of all the things that

Let's focus on trying to raise a mentally healthier generation and take mental illness more seriously, rather than banning / getting rid of all the things that might cause someone (let alone a teenager) to commit suicide (an infinite set).

justapassenger 3y ago
[flagged]
Spivak 3y ago
Boiling the ocean type solutions are the same as doing nothing. A better solution would be to make creating such things very illegal and bring down the same wrath we do for CSAM. There is no amount of "mental health" that can protect you against targeted bullying of that magnitude. I really wish we had a universe simulator so you could see how miserably you would fail to survive an environment like that.
- creer 3y ago
  Isn't bullying already illegal and why aren't you spending that effort on enforcing THAT?
- ipaddr 3y ago
  If a naked picture of you is causing you to choose suicide I think we need to fix how society views nudity. The answer isn't to make nudity illegal. We're going to end up blinding ourselves on purpose to avoid seeing our own nudity if we go down your road.
  - Spivak 3y ago
    It's not a naked photo. It's 1. Complete loss of privacy and control over your image. 2. Shame and embarrassment, especially in high school where every boy will look at you different and reduce you to a sexual object. 3. Public humiliation -- those photos can and do lead to ridicule and bullying. You're the one who is naked while everyone else is clothed. 4. Destroys self-esteem -- high school is already terrible in this regard but it's hard to have any kind of self worth when a sex object and some porn is how your classmates know you. 5. Takes away your agency -- its doesn't matter if the photos aren't real, they can make you do anything in those photos and to a 3rd party viewer there's no difference. 6. It's degrading -- they're not gonna be tasteful nudes and pretending as such is naive. And it doesn't matter if you don't find the acts degrading when everyone else does. It's not making nudity illegal, it's making and distributing sexually explicit images of a person whiteout their consent illegal.
    - ipaddr 3y ago
      Some bullies make people feel shameful for getting an `A' in highschool. The humiliation and self-esteem happens. If someone succeeds at a high level others try to bring them down. The answer isn't to make getting an 'A' illegal. The answer is to challenge the bullying and to not to allow it to gain power.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - Permik 3y ago
      It's just a naked photo, you're just describing a broken (social/social hierarchy) system. Don't hate the players (bully, bullied), hate the game.
      - pxoe 3y ago
        Banning non-consensual nude imagery would "fix" that "broken system". The "game" would be fixed, if those games would be made illegal. So why don't you like that as a solution? Is it supposed to be just "hated" without actually being fixed? You're conflating 'nudity' in general, and non-consensual generated nude images, but like, these things are just different, and are treated differently. There isn't a misunderstanding that nudity in, say, art, is different from nudity in porn, or that there's difference between consensual and nonconsensual depictions, or whether something involves made-up characters and real people. So why insist on conflating these two just for the sake of 'throwing hands' like problems there can't be solved, and that some specific, more narrow set of problems can't have a solution on it's own, when it can.
        Permik 3y ago
        Hi, it seems you missed my point. I was trying to convey a more extreme holistic situation where there simply isn't a consequence of someone sharing a nude picture of someone, people just shrugging and saying "so what? It's perfectly normal to be naked". By breaking the underlying system of shame and embarrassment of someone being nude, there isn't anything to gain from it after that. Then there isn't a reason to even make it illegal anymore. (Other than just not wanting your person to be pictured at all, just basic privacy, no need to put different value to different parts of the body)
  - pxoe 3y ago
    and it's not making nudity illegal, it's about nonconsensual creation and distribution of images with nudity. which may be connected with bullying, blackmail, extortion, or may not be. >If a naked picture of you is causing you to choose suicide really great response. almost as good as 'if rape is causing you to choose suicide'. 'maybe we need to fix how society views rape'. nonconsensual nude imagery and pornography is much closer to rape than not.
- philwelch 3y ago
  If someone AI generated a bunch of nude images of me, I am pretty sure I could survive that. I might even find it amusing. https://x.com/tylerthecreator/status/285670822264307712 https://x.com/tylerthecreator/status/285670822264307712
  - davely 3y ago
    This is an anecdotal fallacy. Because you would be fine does not mean others would be given the same circumstances.
    - philwelch 3y ago
      I was responding to: > I really wish we had a universe simulator so you could see how miserably you would fail to survive an environment like that. So go take up your objections with the guy I was replying to instead of coming at me and moving the goalposts. I agree that kids these days are weak and coddled and not emotionally resilient enough. And this kind of safetyism is the exact reason why.
      - Spivak 3y ago
        The universe simulator in question would deprive you of your memories and life experience. For all you know while you're in it you're a teenage girl with all the trappings and insecurities of being raised as such, you always have been and this is your whole and only world and future you're watching fall apart. Like yeah I'm not at all shocked the HN everyman mid 30s white dude wouldn't really care about his nudes being spread around. The point of the simulator comment was I wish you could truly experience how different life is for women.
        philwelch 3y ago
        At some point this “universe simulator” concept is nonsense because if I don’t retain some aspect of my own personality and mental capacity, it’s not me in the simulator anymore. For all I know, maybe I’m a sentient mushroom from Alpha Centauri except I’m in a “universe simulator” where I am experiencing the life of a human being here on Earth having arguments on Hacker News. Maybe when I come out of the universe simulator I will have a greater empathy for your species. The hypothetical risk of AI-generated deepfake nudes is, in principle, no different from what you could do with Photoshop even when I was a teenager. It’s easier to send the fake nudes to everybody these days, but I seriously doubt anybody would have been genuinely fooled and it would reflect more on whoever made and disseminated the fakes.
- bshacklett 3y ago
  Perhaps we need to spend some time working on the mental health of those who bully others. At the moment, we seem to, mostly, turn a blind eye to it, or use “zero tolerance” policies (which, IMO, are even more harmful to the victims than the bullying) to act like we’ve solved the problem. I don’t pretend to have the answer, but admitting that there’s a problem in the first place is a good step forward.
philwelch 3y ago
“Taking mental illness more seriously” is a vague and double edged sword. In the sense that we have been taking mental health more seriously, we have only made it worse, especially with children and teens. It’s normal to feel down or to be anxious sometimes; a lot of kids will pathologize these feelings rather than treating them as ordinary life obstacles to overcome. I agree with the goal of helping kids be more emotionally resilient but I don’t think the mental health framing is helpful in this regard.
- anon373839 3y ago
  Well, emotional resilience is mental health. I think the problem with mental health framing is label obsession, rather than thinking of mental health like physical health: something to be maintained through healthy habits. If you want to be physically healthy, you eat nutritious, balanced foods and get regular exercise and sufficient sleep. If you want to be mentally healthy, you practice healthy ways to experience and work through your negative feelings rather than trying to avoid or control them. Etc.
  - philwelch 3y ago
    You’re completely right, and if “mental health awareness” was what you’re describing, it would be a lot more effective.

justapassenger 3y ago

[flagged]

Spivak 3y ago

Boiling the ocean type solutions are the same as doing nothing. A better solution would be to make creating such things very illegal and bring down the same wrath we do for CSAM. There is no amount of "mental health" that can protect you against targeted bullying of that magnitude. I really wish we had a universe simulator so you could see how miserably you would fail to survive an environment like that.

creer 3y ago
Isn't bullying already illegal and why aren't you spending that effort on enforcing THAT?
ipaddr 3y ago
If a naked picture of you is causing you to choose suicide I think we need to fix how society views nudity. The answer isn't to make nudity illegal. We're going to end up blinding ourselves on purpose to avoid seeing our own nudity if we go down your road.
- Spivak 3y ago
  It's not a naked photo. It's 1. Complete loss of privacy and control over your image. 2. Shame and embarrassment, especially in high school where every boy will look at you different and reduce you to a sexual object. 3. Public humiliation -- those photos can and do lead to ridicule and bullying. You're the one who is naked while everyone else is clothed. 4. Destroys self-esteem -- high school is already terrible in this regard but it's hard to have any kind of self worth when a sex object and some porn is how your classmates know you. 5. Takes away your agency -- its doesn't matter if the photos aren't real, they can make you do anything in those photos and to a 3rd party viewer there's no difference. 6. It's degrading -- they're not gonna be tasteful nudes and pretending as such is naive. And it doesn't matter if you don't find the acts degrading when everyone else does. It's not making nudity illegal, it's making and distributing sexually explicit images of a person whiteout their consent illegal.
  - ipaddr 3y ago
    Some bullies make people feel shameful for getting an `A' in highschool. The humiliation and self-esteem happens. If someone succeeds at a high level others try to bring them down. The answer isn't to make getting an 'A' illegal. The answer is to challenge the bullying and to not to allow it to gain power.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - Permik 3y ago
    It's just a naked photo, you're just describing a broken (social/social hierarchy) system. Don't hate the players (bully, bullied), hate the game.
    - pxoe 3y ago
      Banning non-consensual nude imagery would "fix" that "broken system". The "game" would be fixed, if those games would be made illegal. So why don't you like that as a solution? Is it supposed to be just "hated" without actually being fixed? You're conflating 'nudity' in general, and non-consensual generated nude images, but like, these things are just different, and are treated differently. There isn't a misunderstanding that nudity in, say, art, is different from nudity in porn, or that there's difference between consensual and nonconsensual depictions, or whether something involves made-up characters and real people. So why insist on conflating these two just for the sake of 'throwing hands' like problems there can't be solved, and that some specific, more narrow set of problems can't have a solution on it's own, when it can.
      - Permik 3y ago
        Hi, it seems you missed my point. I was trying to convey a more extreme holistic situation where there simply isn't a consequence of someone sharing a nude picture of someone, people just shrugging and saying "so what? It's perfectly normal to be naked". By breaking the underlying system of shame and embarrassment of someone being nude, there isn't anything to gain from it after that. Then there isn't a reason to even make it illegal anymore. (Other than just not wanting your person to be pictured at all, just basic privacy, no need to put different value to different parts of the body)
- pxoe 3y ago
  and it's not making nudity illegal, it's about nonconsensual creation and distribution of images with nudity. which may be connected with bullying, blackmail, extortion, or may not be. >If a naked picture of you is causing you to choose suicide really great response. almost as good as 'if rape is causing you to choose suicide'. 'maybe we need to fix how society views rape'. nonconsensual nude imagery and pornography is much closer to rape than not.
philwelch 3y ago
If someone AI generated a bunch of nude images of me, I am pretty sure I could survive that. I might even find it amusing. https://x.com/tylerthecreator/status/285670822264307712 https://x.com/tylerthecreator/status/285670822264307712
- davely 3y ago
  This is an anecdotal fallacy. Because you would be fine does not mean others would be given the same circumstances.
  - philwelch 3y ago
    I was responding to: > I really wish we had a universe simulator so you could see how miserably you would fail to survive an environment like that. So go take up your objections with the guy I was replying to instead of coming at me and moving the goalposts. I agree that kids these days are weak and coddled and not emotionally resilient enough. And this kind of safetyism is the exact reason why.
    - Spivak 3y ago
      The universe simulator in question would deprive you of your memories and life experience. For all you know while you're in it you're a teenage girl with all the trappings and insecurities of being raised as such, you always have been and this is your whole and only world and future you're watching fall apart. Like yeah I'm not at all shocked the HN everyman mid 30s white dude wouldn't really care about his nudes being spread around. The point of the simulator comment was I wish you could truly experience how different life is for women.
      - philwelch 3y ago
        At some point this “universe simulator” concept is nonsense because if I don’t retain some aspect of my own personality and mental capacity, it’s not me in the simulator anymore. For all I know, maybe I’m a sentient mushroom from Alpha Centauri except I’m in a “universe simulator” where I am experiencing the life of a human being here on Earth having arguments on Hacker News. Maybe when I come out of the universe simulator I will have a greater empathy for your species. The hypothetical risk of AI-generated deepfake nudes is, in principle, no different from what you could do with Photoshop even when I was a teenager. It’s easier to send the fake nudes to everybody these days, but I seriously doubt anybody would have been genuinely fooled and it would reflect more on whoever made and disseminated the fakes.
bshacklett 3y ago
Perhaps we need to spend some time working on the mental health of those who bully others. At the moment, we seem to, mostly, turn a blind eye to it, or use “zero tolerance” policies (which, IMO, are even more harmful to the victims than the bullying) to act like we’ve solved the problem. I don’t pretend to have the answer, but admitting that there’s a problem in the first place is a good step forward.

philwelch 3y ago

“Taking mental illness more seriously” is a vague and double edged sword. In the sense that we have been taking mental health more seriously, we have only made it worse, especially with children and teens. It’s normal to feel down or to be anxious sometimes; a lot of kids will pathologize these feelings rather than treating them as ordinary life obstacles to overcome. I agree with the goal of helping kids be more emotionally resilient but I don’t think the mental health framing is helpful in this regard.

anon373839 3y ago
Well, emotional resilience is mental health. I think the problem with mental health framing is label obsession, rather than thinking of mental health like physical health: something to be maintained through healthy habits. If you want to be physically healthy, you eat nutritious, balanced foods and get regular exercise and sufficient sleep. If you want to be mentally healthy, you practice healthy ways to experience and work through your negative feelings rather than trying to avoid or control them. Etc.
- philwelch 3y ago
  You’re completely right, and if “mental health awareness” was what you’re describing, it would be a lot more effective.