15 ms·

Now that they're in use for a while, does real life observation confirm or deny the reports during development, claiming it's a jack of all trades master of non

by oDot 3y ago

Now that they're in use for a while, does real life observation confirm or deny the reports during development, claiming it's a jack of all trades master of none, "a failure"?

stingraycharles 3y ago
The thing is that in military, it’s extremely difficult to predict ahead of times what exactly you’re going to need. So a jack of all trades may be exactly what they need.
- ryao 3y ago
  They could have just stuck to 2 or 3 roles per aircraft like in previous generations instead of trying to stuff every role possible onto one aircraft. It would have avoided the criticisms that it faces now.
strangescript 3y ago
They seem to be a huge success and most of the failure claims during development were probably intentional smoke screens to throw off adversaries (tin foil hot take).
pjmlp 3y ago
Jack of all trades, master of none, but oftentimes better than master of one.
- ryao 3y ago
  > Jack of all trades, master of none, but oftentimes better than master of one. Your own words contradict themselves. A master of none is never better than a master of one. None means there is no case of being better.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_all_trades https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_all_trades
    - ryao 3y ago
      There was a time when you could know everything there was to know. Those times are long gone. To give an example, Carl Friedrich Gauss was the last one to know all of mathematics and physics. The idea of a renaissance man who could be a master of all things is long dead.
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        Another eristic found on the Web.
fgoesbrrr 3y ago
It's a complete success. There is an order backlog of hundreds from various countries, and due to economy of scale the price went down significantly ($200 mil -> $80 mil) French is upset that EU countries are ordering this instead of an EU made plane. > F-35 Production Challenged to Keep Up with Demand https://www.airandspaceforces.com/f-35-production-challenged-to-keep-up-with-demand/ https://www.airandspaceforces.com/f-35-production-challenged... It's the right plane at the right time (Ukraine war, EU militaries pathetic state)
- ryao 3y ago
  That does not refute the criticism about it being a "a jack of all trades master of none". The military gave it so many roles that it seems unlikely to escape that criticism. One of its roles is Close Air Support. A quick search finds that it is inferior to its predecessor in that role: https://federalnewsnetwork.com/air-force/2023/11/air-force-finally-reveals-a-little-bit-about-how-the-f-35-stacks-up-in-providing-close-air-support/ https://federalnewsnetwork.com/air-force/2023/11/air-force-f...
  - fgoesbrrr 3y ago
    If you look in Ukraine it's not the "masters of one" planes proving most useful.
    - ryao 3y ago
      It is not the F-35 either. The F-35 is more of a jack of all trades than its multirole predecessors. Note that the F-22 is also considered a multirole aircraft, but it really is suited for just 1 role, which is why it was discontinued, since that role was not deemed necessary in modern conflicts. The F-22 also outperforms the F-35 in that single role.
  - Angostura 3y ago
    Also known as "a useful general purpose plane", perhaps?
  - TrainedMonkey 3y ago
H8crilA 3y ago
They haven't really been properly combat tested, for example in SEAD/DEAD. But then many platforms haven't been. And the Israeli Air Force did go as far as publicly post selfies from over Beirut :). You also have to wonder how come locations in Syria keep exploding every now and then.
- avh02 3y ago
  Surprisingly not just fancy new jets, f15 and f16s too: https://apnews.com/article/syria-airstrikes-iran-revolutionary-guard-af3c7a0f069b8c8b08f6feaa0e165d6a https://apnews.com/article/syria-airstrikes-iran-revolutiona...
  - H8crilA 3y ago
    The thing is that Syria is, de facto, not one country. Striking targets in different locations requires completely different capabilities, and the US usually targets eastern Syria, while Israel usually targets western Syria or (as of recently) Lebanon. Just the other day US Air Force has allegedly done a bombing run on some Iran-supported forces - but with ADS-B enabled! I mean what we do know for sure is that there was a bombing run, and at the same time there were appropriate USAF aircraft in the air with ADS-B visible on flightradar24 and other such websites.
izacus 3y ago
Since then, a large number of European countries have ordered more than 300 F-35 jets which usually won in competition over the latest block F-16s, Grippens and Dassault Rafales. I think that speaks for itself - problems or no, F-35 is pretty much full generation ahead of competition, is (now) reasonably priced for customers. While it might not be superior in a single role, it does most roles well, has bigger range than most previous gen gets and has a sensor/avionics suite that is currently way ahead of competition (at least one we know about).
guestbest 3y ago
It doesn’t really matter since drones are going to replace everything in the air except transport
Manuel_D 3y ago
There's really no way to tell, as the US and other western countries haven't been involved in symmetric warfare in recent history. Will the F-35 be able to penetrate air defenses and strike an S-300 battery? Is its radar good enough to detect and engage a J-20 without exposing itself to return fire? Those capabilities have never been tested (and hopefully never will).

by oDot 3y ago

Now that they're in use for a while, does real life observation confirm or deny the reports during development, claiming it's a jack of all trades master of none, "a failure"?

stingraycharles 3y ago

The thing is that in military, it’s extremely difficult to predict ahead of times what exactly you’re going to need. So a jack of all trades may be exactly what they need.

ryao 3y ago
They could have just stuck to 2 or 3 roles per aircraft like in previous generations instead of trying to stuff every role possible onto one aircraft. It would have avoided the criticisms that it faces now.

strangescript 3y ago

They seem to be a huge success and most of the failure claims during development were probably intentional smoke screens to throw off adversaries (tin foil hot take).

pjmlp 3y ago

Jack of all trades, master of none, but oftentimes better than master of one.

ryao 3y ago
> Jack of all trades, master of none, but oftentimes better than master of one. Your own words contradict themselves. A master of none is never better than a master of one. None means there is no case of being better.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_all_trades https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_all_trades
  - ryao 3y ago
    There was a time when you could know everything there was to know. Those times are long gone. To give an example, Carl Friedrich Gauss was the last one to know all of mathematics and physics. The idea of a renaissance man who could be a master of all things is long dead.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      Another eristic found on the Web.

fgoesbrrr 3y ago

It's a complete success. There is an order backlog of hundreds from various countries, and due to economy of scale the price went down significantly ($200 mil -> $80 mil) French is upset that EU countries are ordering this instead of an EU made plane. > F-35 Production Challenged to Keep Up with Demand https://www.airandspaceforces.com/f-35-production-challenged-to-keep-up-with-demand/ https://www.airandspaceforces.com/f-35-production-challenged... It's the right plane at the right time (Ukraine war, EU militaries pathetic state)

ryao 3y ago
That does not refute the criticism about it being a "a jack of all trades master of none". The military gave it so many roles that it seems unlikely to escape that criticism. One of its roles is Close Air Support. A quick search finds that it is inferior to its predecessor in that role: https://federalnewsnetwork.com/air-force/2023/11/air-force-finally-reveals-a-little-bit-about-how-the-f-35-stacks-up-in-providing-close-air-support/ https://federalnewsnetwork.com/air-force/2023/11/air-force-f...
- fgoesbrrr 3y ago
  If you look in Ukraine it's not the "masters of one" planes proving most useful.
  - ryao 3y ago
    It is not the F-35 either. The F-35 is more of a jack of all trades than its multirole predecessors. Note that the F-22 is also considered a multirole aircraft, but it really is suited for just 1 role, which is why it was discontinued, since that role was not deemed necessary in modern conflicts. The F-22 also outperforms the F-35 in that single role.
- Angostura 3y ago
  Also known as "a useful general purpose plane", perhaps?
- TrainedMonkey 3y ago

H8crilA 3y ago

They haven't really been properly combat tested, for example in SEAD/DEAD. But then many platforms haven't been. And the Israeli Air Force did go as far as publicly post selfies from over Beirut :). You also have to wonder how come locations in Syria keep exploding every now and then.

avh02 3y ago
Surprisingly not just fancy new jets, f15 and f16s too: https://apnews.com/article/syria-airstrikes-iran-revolutionary-guard-af3c7a0f069b8c8b08f6feaa0e165d6a https://apnews.com/article/syria-airstrikes-iran-revolutiona...
- H8crilA 3y ago
  The thing is that Syria is, de facto, not one country. Striking targets in different locations requires completely different capabilities, and the US usually targets eastern Syria, while Israel usually targets western Syria or (as of recently) Lebanon. Just the other day US Air Force has allegedly done a bombing run on some Iran-supported forces - but with ADS-B enabled! I mean what we do know for sure is that there was a bombing run, and at the same time there were appropriate USAF aircraft in the air with ADS-B visible on flightradar24 and other such websites.

izacus 3y ago

Since then, a large number of European countries have ordered more than 300 F-35 jets which usually won in competition over the latest block F-16s, Grippens and Dassault Rafales. I think that speaks for itself - problems or no, F-35 is pretty much full generation ahead of competition, is (now) reasonably priced for customers. While it might not be superior in a single role, it does most roles well, has bigger range than most previous gen gets and has a sensor/avionics suite that is currently way ahead of competition (at least one we know about).

guestbest 3y ago

It doesn’t really matter since drones are going to replace everything in the air except transport

Manuel_D 3y ago

There's really no way to tell, as the US and other western countries haven't been involved in symmetric warfare in recent history. Will the F-35 be able to penetrate air defenses and strike an S-300 battery? Is its radar good enough to detect and engage a J-20 without exposing itself to return fire? Those capabilities have never been tested (and hopefully never will).