7 ms·

I used to be the coder of a small demoscene team in the early 2000's. I never had as much fun writing computer programs ever since then. It was creating awesome

I used to be the coder of a small demoscene team in the early 2000's. I never had as much fun writing computer programs ever since then. It was creating awesome stuff just for the sake of awesomeness.

pheon 15y ago
same here but mid 90`s oh the nostalgia. Kinda surprising, demogroups were kinda like small startups at least on the production side. biz side/product development/customer development/etc etc ... non existent, guess that`s why it was so fun. Still great learning experience for a kid.
- ArekDymalski 15y ago
  Actually this comparison to startups can be extended. In case of demogroups PR was very important, there were strong brands, you had to apply for the positions etc. That was fun&learning not only on the technical side but also about teamwork, coping with failure on the party etc.
- Jare 15y ago
  At Iguana we even had a QA department! But yeah it was nothing like a startup because there were no responsibilities or requirements, everyone just did whatever they wanted, when they wanted, how they wanted, and if it gelled into a demo, then great. It was all about exploring shared interests and having fun.
Cushman 15y ago
What do you think is stopping demos from taking off as a serious commercial art form? Just culture, or something more fundamental?
- mjn 15y ago
  Interactive demo-like things have been taking off lately, but mostly under the label "games" (which sells more), even in the case where the game-ness is pretty minimal. Not sure if they're explicitly inspired by the demoscene or not, but interactive-procedural-graphics-and-sound stuff like Proteus feels very much like a demoscene production to me (http://www.visitproteus.com/ http://www.visitproteus.com/). Main difference imo is more focus on the procedural interactivity from an experiential perspective, and less focus on technical virtuosity.
  - rollypolly 15y ago
    Indeed, many people went from the demoscene to the game industry. Case in point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remedy_Entertainment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remedy_Entertainment
    - forza 15y ago
      ..and a lot of other northen european games companies. http://www.4players.de/4sceners.php/dispbericht/-/5157/0/index.html http://www.4players.de/4sceners.php/dispbericht/-/5157/0/ind...
  - Cushman 15y ago
    But strictly demos are non-interactive, right? That's the question I have: Is there a market for a pure-digital multimedia art form beside games?
    - pheon 15y ago
      market absolutely, look at the amount of scene stuff on the web. I think your question is, will someone pay money for a pure off the wall demo - short answer is no. long answer is they kinda have for a while, futuremark was the classic commercialized demo. difference tho is, it had a utility besides the eye candy.
    - leif 15y ago
      Yes, there is, but the way to break in is to start with things incorporating programs in small ways within a larger piece, call it experimental, and slowly make the composition more computer-centric.
    - mjn 15y ago
      Some demos have interactive components I believe, though I'm having trouble digging up a prominent example at the moment. Not as games per se, but in the sense that the graphics/audio can change procedurally in response to keystrokes. As far as non-interactive demo-style stuff, markets pop up occasionally for procedural/generative art, which is related, though again with less focus on compactness (except when necessary). There was a market for screensavers in the 90s, for example, and some had pretty involved procedural stuff going on. Today there are a handful of mobile apps doing generative graphics, e.g. http://superfiretruck.com/iteration/ http://superfiretruck.com/iteration/. I think you could probably sell a demoscene production or demo-pack on Android.
- DrJokepu 15y ago
  This is a very interesting question. I believe that demos didn't "take off" simply because most people don't find them interesting. If you ask me, the main reasons behind this are the inherent geekiness of this subculture (it's difficult to appreciate the craftsmanship behind demos for most people) as well as the fact that most of the active "sceners" are typically young people who don't necessarily have enough life experience or maturity yet to be able send a meaningful message with a lasting value that could capture the attention of a wider audience (this was definitely true for me). By the time they "grow up", they have jobs and families and other responsibilities and don't have time to produce demos.
  - leif 15y ago
    I find this probably invalid, attractive though it may be. There are many "high art" forms that do not convey the massive effort put in to creating an image, yet it is this effort that makes the pieces desirable (lithography is one, but actually most art takes a lot more than the layperson realizes). Most examples of this came out of necessity but moved to an art form once the necessity was gone (though this was a very slow process). I think demos just haven't been around long enough for a larger artistic culture to build around them. Either art collectors will need to decide that demos are art, or the demo-scene itself needs to produce collectors. I think it's more likely that demos will become a small subculture within "programs as art", where art games will probably lead, since they are doing a better job of promotion and marketing outside their base. The other thing demos are missing is an idea. Most media go through a phase where technique is paramount (in music, the virtuosos, in most visual art, loosely the "realists"), but the majority of fine art must address an important theme outside of the work itself to be interesting. Demos exist for themselves, they don't have any higher purpose. Games, in a small way, do, which may also account for their success so far.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
- skrebbel 15y ago
  Culture. In fact, the GP answered it. Demos are all about awesome for the sake of awesomeness. Sell it, and it wouldn't be "for the sake of awesomeness" anymore. And it'd be less fun. There've been a small number of paid demoscene projects at some points, such as Linger in Shadows by Plastic (http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=50170 http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=50170), but even they were simply paid for the project by Sony, they didn't market and commercialize the demo themselves. I guess it's simply that for most demosceners, once you not just doing it for fun anymore, it isn't really much fun anymore.
- elemeno 15y ago
  I'd argue it's because they're universally rather dull. On a technical level, demos are highly impressive and how they manage to overcome the limitations imposed by the scene to create the works that they do is ingenious, but it doesn't make the resulting product interesting from an artistic viewpoint. For me at least, the glaring weakness is the lack of narrative - there's no stories being told, there's nothing that engages or challenges the viewer. They're akin to videos that show off the features of a game engine where they engender the "that's pretty" reaction, but little else. To my mind, this is caused by two things - primarily, it's a side effect of the restrictions imposed by the artform. With the limitations of the scene in play, there simply might not exist the scope to create enough content for an engaging narrative structure to be based around and procedural generation only takes you so far when it comes to creating assets in a resource limited environment. Secondly, I'd argue that the types of people who are primarily interested in creating narrative are going to gravitate to different creative areas - creating short films, or animations for example. As a result, the demoscene is likely to be made up of people who mostly interesting in the question of how pretty the output is, rather than how interesting it is. This is of course also related to the fact that people who 'grew up' in the scene are likely to have a relatively narrow view of what the scene looks like and are unlikely to buck that trend and break out into doing something completely different. The above is naturally just my two euroyencent of course.
  - henrikschroder 15y ago
    > how they manage to overcome the limitations imposed by the scene It's pretty telling that the scene adapted to the increased hardware by imposing their own limitations instead of anything-goes. If we can't be wowed by what they do on limited hardware, we have to be wowed by what they can do under their own very harsh limitations.
    - forza 15y ago
      I'm not sure what you are referring to. 4k/64k have been around for a long time, close to 20 years. Demos are generally "anything goes" and for anything else there are usually a "wild compo".
- 127 15y ago
  Because people see them simply as computer animation with pre-recorded music. They don't understand the algorithmic beauty inside. I don't think demos will ever have a wide mass-appeal, even while being one of the most demanding and beautiful of art-forms (in my opinion).
  - zokier 15y ago
    I'm skeptical about that. I think that the issue is that even algorithmic beauty could be considered just aesthetics and people except more than beauty from art, as has (post-)modernism demonstrated very clearly.
skrebbel 15y ago
group name, handles, id numbers please! in fact, there's plenty of active demosceners here on HN. -waves!-
- enqk 15y ago
  hello :)
  - skrebbel 15y ago
    knos, you change handle too fast.
    - enqk 15y ago
      As fast as a ukulele loses its tuning! It is harder and harder, and maybe it does not feel as relevant as before anymore, to preserve the pseudonymity the scene valued. It's certainly something that always attracted me.
      - tripzilch 15y ago
        Blame Google+ ;-)
- tripzilch 15y ago
  Ritz, 4k coder. But you probably knew that already. Is it true what you said in the other thread, all the Dutch sceners are unemployed? :) Something in the drinking water at Bizarre, perhaps? :) My releases: http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=343 http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=343 http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=291 http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=291 http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=332 http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=332 http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=333 http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=333 (You might need one of those DOSbox tools to get sound or to run at all though. They were targeted at Win98/2k, Meuk completely stopped working with XP)

pheon 15y ago

same here but mid 90`s oh the nostalgia. Kinda surprising, demogroups were kinda like small startups at least on the production side. biz side/product development/customer development/etc etc ... non existent, guess that`s why it was so fun. Still great learning experience for a kid.

ArekDymalski 15y ago
Actually this comparison to startups can be extended. In case of demogroups PR was very important, there were strong brands, you had to apply for the positions etc. That was fun&learning not only on the technical side but also about teamwork, coping with failure on the party etc.
Jare 15y ago
At Iguana we even had a QA department! But yeah it was nothing like a startup because there were no responsibilities or requirements, everyone just did whatever they wanted, when they wanted, how they wanted, and if it gelled into a demo, then great. It was all about exploring shared interests and having fun.

Cushman 15y ago

What do you think is stopping demos from taking off as a serious commercial art form? Just culture, or something more fundamental?

mjn 15y ago
Interactive demo-like things have been taking off lately, but mostly under the label "games" (which sells more), even in the case where the game-ness is pretty minimal. Not sure if they're explicitly inspired by the demoscene or not, but interactive-procedural-graphics-and-sound stuff like Proteus feels very much like a demoscene production to me (http://www.visitproteus.com/ http://www.visitproteus.com/). Main difference imo is more focus on the procedural interactivity from an experiential perspective, and less focus on technical virtuosity.
- rollypolly 15y ago
  Indeed, many people went from the demoscene to the game industry. Case in point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remedy_Entertainment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remedy_Entertainment
  - forza 15y ago
    ..and a lot of other northen european games companies. http://www.4players.de/4sceners.php/dispbericht/-/5157/0/index.html http://www.4players.de/4sceners.php/dispbericht/-/5157/0/ind...
- Cushman 15y ago
  But strictly demos are non-interactive, right? That's the question I have: Is there a market for a pure-digital multimedia art form beside games?
  - pheon 15y ago
    market absolutely, look at the amount of scene stuff on the web. I think your question is, will someone pay money for a pure off the wall demo - short answer is no. long answer is they kinda have for a while, futuremark was the classic commercialized demo. difference tho is, it had a utility besides the eye candy.
  - leif 15y ago
    Yes, there is, but the way to break in is to start with things incorporating programs in small ways within a larger piece, call it experimental, and slowly make the composition more computer-centric.
  - mjn 15y ago
    Some demos have interactive components I believe, though I'm having trouble digging up a prominent example at the moment. Not as games per se, but in the sense that the graphics/audio can change procedurally in response to keystrokes. As far as non-interactive demo-style stuff, markets pop up occasionally for procedural/generative art, which is related, though again with less focus on compactness (except when necessary). There was a market for screensavers in the 90s, for example, and some had pretty involved procedural stuff going on. Today there are a handful of mobile apps doing generative graphics, e.g. http://superfiretruck.com/iteration/ http://superfiretruck.com/iteration/. I think you could probably sell a demoscene production or demo-pack on Android.
DrJokepu 15y ago
This is a very interesting question. I believe that demos didn't "take off" simply because most people don't find them interesting. If you ask me, the main reasons behind this are the inherent geekiness of this subculture (it's difficult to appreciate the craftsmanship behind demos for most people) as well as the fact that most of the active "sceners" are typically young people who don't necessarily have enough life experience or maturity yet to be able send a meaningful message with a lasting value that could capture the attention of a wider audience (this was definitely true for me). By the time they "grow up", they have jobs and families and other responsibilities and don't have time to produce demos.
- leif 15y ago
  I find this probably invalid, attractive though it may be. There are many "high art" forms that do not convey the massive effort put in to creating an image, yet it is this effort that makes the pieces desirable (lithography is one, but actually most art takes a lot more than the layperson realizes). Most examples of this came out of necessity but moved to an art form once the necessity was gone (though this was a very slow process). I think demos just haven't been around long enough for a larger artistic culture to build around them. Either art collectors will need to decide that demos are art, or the demo-scene itself needs to produce collectors. I think it's more likely that demos will become a small subculture within "programs as art", where art games will probably lead, since they are doing a better job of promotion and marketing outside their base. The other thing demos are missing is an idea. Most media go through a phase where technique is paramount (in music, the virtuosos, in most visual art, loosely the "realists"), but the majority of fine art must address an important theme outside of the work itself to be interesting. Demos exist for themselves, they don't have any higher purpose. Games, in a small way, do, which may also account for their success so far.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
skrebbel 15y ago
Culture. In fact, the GP answered it. Demos are all about awesome for the sake of awesomeness. Sell it, and it wouldn't be "for the sake of awesomeness" anymore. And it'd be less fun. There've been a small number of paid demoscene projects at some points, such as Linger in Shadows by Plastic (http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=50170 http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=50170), but even they were simply paid for the project by Sony, they didn't market and commercialize the demo themselves. I guess it's simply that for most demosceners, once you not just doing it for fun anymore, it isn't really much fun anymore.
elemeno 15y ago
I'd argue it's because they're universally rather dull. On a technical level, demos are highly impressive and how they manage to overcome the limitations imposed by the scene to create the works that they do is ingenious, but it doesn't make the resulting product interesting from an artistic viewpoint. For me at least, the glaring weakness is the lack of narrative - there's no stories being told, there's nothing that engages or challenges the viewer. They're akin to videos that show off the features of a game engine where they engender the "that's pretty" reaction, but little else. To my mind, this is caused by two things - primarily, it's a side effect of the restrictions imposed by the artform. With the limitations of the scene in play, there simply might not exist the scope to create enough content for an engaging narrative structure to be based around and procedural generation only takes you so far when it comes to creating assets in a resource limited environment. Secondly, I'd argue that the types of people who are primarily interested in creating narrative are going to gravitate to different creative areas - creating short films, or animations for example. As a result, the demoscene is likely to be made up of people who mostly interesting in the question of how pretty the output is, rather than how interesting it is. This is of course also related to the fact that people who 'grew up' in the scene are likely to have a relatively narrow view of what the scene looks like and are unlikely to buck that trend and break out into doing something completely different. The above is naturally just my two euroyencent of course.
- henrikschroder 15y ago
  > how they manage to overcome the limitations imposed by the scene It's pretty telling that the scene adapted to the increased hardware by imposing their own limitations instead of anything-goes. If we can't be wowed by what they do on limited hardware, we have to be wowed by what they can do under their own very harsh limitations.
  - forza 15y ago
    I'm not sure what you are referring to. 4k/64k have been around for a long time, close to 20 years. Demos are generally "anything goes" and for anything else there are usually a "wild compo".
127 15y ago
Because people see them simply as computer animation with pre-recorded music. They don't understand the algorithmic beauty inside. I don't think demos will ever have a wide mass-appeal, even while being one of the most demanding and beautiful of art-forms (in my opinion).
- zokier 15y ago
  I'm skeptical about that. I think that the issue is that even algorithmic beauty could be considered just aesthetics and people except more than beauty from art, as has (post-)modernism demonstrated very clearly.

skrebbel 15y ago

group name, handles, id numbers please! in fact, there's plenty of active demosceners here on HN. -waves!-

enqk 15y ago
hello :)
- skrebbel 15y ago
  knos, you change handle too fast.
  - enqk 15y ago
    As fast as a ukulele loses its tuning! It is harder and harder, and maybe it does not feel as relevant as before anymore, to preserve the pseudonymity the scene valued. It's certainly something that always attracted me.
    - tripzilch 15y ago
      Blame Google+ ;-)
tripzilch 15y ago
Ritz, 4k coder. But you probably knew that already. Is it true what you said in the other thread, all the Dutch sceners are unemployed? :) Something in the drinking water at Bizarre, perhaps? :) My releases: http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=343 http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=343 http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=291 http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=291 http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=332 http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=332 http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=333 http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=333 (You might need one of those DOSbox tools to get sound or to run at all though. They were targeted at Win98/2k, Meuk completely stopped working with XP)