7 ms·

META OK everyone. You might have noticed that Hacker News has gone downhill lately. A common pattern is for the number one comment to be some vaguely negative

by rms 15y ago

META OK everyone. You might have noticed that Hacker News has gone downhill lately. A common pattern is for the number one comment to be some vaguely negative and uninteresting post. In this case, it's also an inflammatory post that wrongly blames the victim. I'm friends with Rachel and the stalker dude is real. I was uselessly harassed by him because I spoke at Extreme Futurist Fest. He's real, he's crazy, and sometimes the police aren't effective. Please be nice everyone. Think seriously before you make a comment. If it's one sentence long, it's probably a useless comment. EDIT: When I made this comment, the #1 comment was unhelpful and just blamed Rachel. It has since been deleted by the poster, who perhaps reconsidered the utility of posting in this thread. Again, I don't want to be here, normally I would stay really far away from a thread like this, I just know that Rachel is a real person and I don't like to see trolls crapping all over this thread on this website that once meant so much to me.

tomflack 15y ago
Please read the following in an exasperated tone of voice, because that's what I feel here. The problem is the very public trashing of kickstarter on her blog, combined with the multitude of people who have had run-ins with Rachael over the past few years calling her "crazy" etc. Allegedly the FBI are uninterested in prosecuting the cyber stalker. However since coming across this today I've seen nothing that indicates they actually exist, or if they do exist, the kind of hateful things they harass with. As far as anyone external to the situation can tell the stalker is either a figment of Rachael's imagination or someone who is going around informing people who potentially might give her money of something she doesn't want them to know. We just don't know. So in light of the very public trashing of kickstarter, it seems only fair we get to see all the evidence publicly as well - like documentary evidence of complaints to the police about the alleged stalker's behaviour. Edit: and instead of downvotes, please tell me why my train of thought on this matter is unreasonable.
- rms 15y ago
  I believe Kickstarter has an obligation to treat Rachel like a customer. I believe they are capable of building the tool needed to deliver a good experience to customers like Rachel. I don't support the specific language Rachel might have used, but I empathize with Rachel's frustration with Kickstarter's flawed process. I met Rachel a few months ago. She seems nice. I know she has all this weird unresolved drama from the past, but I have a strict no drama allowed rule so I try not to dwell on it. I believe that people can change and become more rational and less dramatic and Rachel seems to be doing really really well, except for all these weird people from alternative music scenes that Rachel somehow made way too angry. I ran across one example of the stalker randomly on the internet yesterday, which was the stalker writing a review of Extreme Futurist Fest saying it was really bad. The review was willfully inaccurate, I was at the event, and it was really good for a new event and the attendees really impressed me with their intellectual caliber. The review was posted unsolicited on a bunch of mailing lists that didn't care, such as the list of the Mormon Transhumanist Association. No, it's utterly ridiculous to post evidence related to ongoing legal matters to the peanut gallery of the internet. Any lawyer or legal TV show will recommend against that.
  - tomflack 15y ago
    > No, it's utterly ridiculous to post evidence related to ongoing legal matters to the peanut gallery of the internet. Any lawyer or legal TV show will recommend against that. This is where you and I disagree. Regardless of real-world implications I consider it unethical to use the court of public opinion to court sympathy ("my stalker of 10 years..." "police are doing nothing...") and to trash companies you think have wronged you (this kickstarter affair) without posting all the evidence people ask for, or need, to craft an informed opinion.
    - rms 15y ago
      DH3. http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html
      - tomflack 15y ago
        I don't understand. Care to explain further than that link? Edit: don't bother. It's a needless deviation from the topic of conversation here and I disagree with your interpretation of that link anyway.
  - DanBC 15y ago
    > but I have a strict no drama allowed rule You might want to stop feeding this ridiculous thread. IHBT.
    - angersock 15y ago
      Isn't it strange how, whenever that phrase or something similar is transmitted, inevitably drama ensues?
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- paulhauggis 15y ago
  Why is it that people like Rachael always have drama around them? I know people like this. Everyone is out to get them and people are always doing something to them (oh yeah, the world needs to know about it). I feel like she probably brought this onto herself somehow. Stalking is serious, if did happen, something needs to be done.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - agent409 15y ago
    She always has drama around her because she has some kind of rockstar vibe, she's hyper, and she has what seems like a limitless supply of enthusiasm and good will. I've seen plenty of people like that get shit all over just because they're happy when other people aren't. It doesn't mean she deserves a stalker. Just sayin'. By comparison I'm a relative nobody, but this same person who stalks Rachel has also stalked me off and on for about a decade because I once told him "no" when he asked me to do something for him I didn't feel comfortable doing. All it takes to trigger stalker-dude is to make him feel slighted in some way.
    - ErrantX 15y ago
      It takes two to tango. That is harsh, but it is a lesson I learned from my stalker. No one deserves to be stalked, and the people that do the stalking and weird and disturbing and evil. But I caused a significant portion of the problem in my drama. Recognising that is a critical step to making them go away. Which is possible.
      - agent409 15y ago
        Of course you are mostly correct and I've expressed this same sentiment to Rachel several times. She understands it, but she doesn't "get" it yet. She's a great target because she does that stress panic thing some people whenever this guy starts messing with her. I'm sure everyone here recognizes that as a maturity/self-control thing, but it comes easier for some than others. Especially in people who have dealt with traumas it can be difficult to stave off an amygdala's hijacking and not freak out. On the other hand, this guy really does go out of his way to harass people on his list. He still randomly mails shit-o-grams from throw-away yahoo or gmail accounts to my old email accounts. I just learned to ignore him and forward the lulz back to the abuse department of his provider. Unfortunately Rachel, when faced with this guy on Kickstarter, thought she needed to tell her supporters what was going on. Kickstarter interpreted that as if she was responding directly to the "spammer" and turned their back. What you say about her learning to not let him under her skin really is a critical step in making him go away. If the squeeky toy stops squeeking, it's no longer fun.
- Tichy 15y ago
  Kickstarter removed her because of the spamming, which seems to be an indication that the stalker exists. Of course she might have just been talking to herself, but having never heard about her before, I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.
  - Drbble 15y ago
    And you've heard about her now. Hmm. Whose interest does that server? Someone who wants to stop her life, or someone who wants to promote and sell tickets to her "transhuman" art projects
jasonlotito 15y ago
The top post has been for a long while not in support of the OP's unsubstantiated claims. I'm fairly certain it's not an accurate representation of anything, however, and suggesting it is is dishonest. A large number, if not majority of posts in this thread are supportive of the "victim," so much so they blindly believe her. > You might have noticed that Hacker News has gone downhill lately. I notice a lot of people here making the assumption the post is 100% correct, with nothing to back it up besides italicized text. If you have some proof of these allegations, provide it. If not, lets not jump to conclusions. > Please be nice everyone. Think seriously before you make a comment. Well, that goes both ways, doesn't it?
mcantelon 15y ago
>I'm friends with Rachel and the stalker dude is real I would keep in mind the possibility that she herself is sending out this stalker material. If she has a history of generating drama, as has been suggested by others from communities she's been previously involved in, creating a stalker is the perfect device. Her account of the stalker's tactics is quite extreme: I've never heard of any case where a cyberstalker has taken things as far as she claims this stalker has. Some evidence would help her case. As an aside, just to let you know where my perspective comes from, I've been involved in the past with noise/industrial music communities and have met some extreme, sociopathic individuals. I also currently have a friend who claims he's stalked but my best guess, after years of knowing him, is that it's a psychological manifestation. He has lost at least one creative deal by sending, out of the blue, abusive electronic communication. People can act in unusual ways, even intelligent, articulate people that are normally personable.
- auntjanetreno 15y ago
  she had a restraining order on HER for stalking! (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 14, @12:18PM (#39685675) and also from her own blog: > > Experiment Haywire's Blog > Sign up > Mar 22, 2009 > Prometheus Burning threatens legal action against me for "stalking" > I hate that I need to share this with everyone but I feel that my > legal safety might be in danger and am making this post to ask for > advice. I am currently scared out of my mind. > > Remember the band that called me a "lonely wannabe poser with no > musical skill" and a "hypocritical talentless hack" after staging > public drama with me for publicity? The band that harassed me to > the point where I actually had to call my sick mother for help? My > mother was conservative enough to file a DMCA charge against this > band for posting a private email of mine to the public. While I did > not want this private email posted and felt an extreme sense of > violation I strongly disapproved of my mother's actions regarding > the DMCA. (an organization which I utterly despise) In the end my > mother was in critical medical condition and was simply trying to > get this band to leave me alone- yet when she brought the DMCA into > this I was furious. > > I recently emailed the band and apologized for the actions of my > mother. I mentioned that I liked their music and that I would like > to put the past behind us. I used to be on good terms with this > band. I was a constant promoter of their music and spun them > consistently as a DJ in NYC when nobody else had heard of them. We > had mutual friends and (as far as I saw it) absolutely no reason to > perpetuate any conflict between us. I planned to support them on > tour along with Caustic and The Gothsicles in Atlanta. I figured > that it would be a great time. > > Until they told me the following on a public forum: > > "We have saved every email and message you have sent to Nikki. We > have saved every message, bulletin, etc. you have posted that > mentions us and we have saved every post you ever made on these > forums and others that mention us. Your stalker behavior is well > documented by us and by our lawyer. We have not taken the steps to > get a PFA against you as of yet, but we have more than enough > documentation to do so when we feel it necessary." -Prometheus > Burning > > Just wow. I don't appreciate people making false accusations about > me and I certainly don't appreciate being threatened with a lawyer > for a crime that I did not commit. Most importantly though: do they > have any idea what stalking actually is? As someone who has been > stalked before (and I'm not just talking about ex-boyfriends > failing to leave me alone but an actual sociopath making constant > threats against the lives of me and the people dear to me) I am > strongly offended by the way this band has used the term "stalking" > to refer to my attempt at a peaceful resolution. Stalking is not a > joke. If you have ever been stalked before you know what it's like > to beg for your stalker to leave you alone only to be told not to > further engage him. If you have ever been stalked before you know > what it's like to walk into a public place in fear of your life. If > you have ever been stalked before you know that horrible sinking > feeling you get when your stalker contacts you. It is not a > pleasant feeling. (to say the least) > > Stalking is not something to fuck around with. Accusing someone of > stalking is a lot like accusing someone of domestic abuse. If this > person didn't stalk or abuse you then you are minimizing the > struggles of thousands of individuals who are stalked and abused. > Many of these people have emailed me in tears to confide. Yet now > this band is claiming that I am stalking them. What can I do? I'm > being threatened with legal action for a crime that I did not > commit. A crime that I myself have been a target of. > > At least there is some comic relief to this story. I was trying to > understand the motivation behind all of their harassment. At first > I didn't pay any attention to the messages I was getting from > friends who were telling me this band was now ripping off my vocal > style. I honestly didn't give a fuck because I had other things to > focus on. Yet when they started threatening legal action against me > for "stalking" I went to their myspace page. Behold. > > Did they rip off my vocals? I want to say no because my delivery is > a lot more punk rock but I couldn't help noticing that the lead > singer was now using my same vocal patterns, screaming/talking > style, word emphasis, etc. in their songs. This was not what was > most surprising to me though. What was surprising to me was that > these pseudo-occult types who were avid readers of Acidexia in its > blog form and readers of Generation Hex (the Disinformation chaos > magick anthology that you can find my writing in) were using every > concept I'd written about in Acidexia and Generation Hex for their > band. > > Their "influences" are as follows: > > Self Destructive Behavior > Sensory Deprivation > Transhumanism > Chaos Magick > Traumatic Childhood Experiences > Abusive Relationships > Bi-Polar Depression > Insomnia > Aleister Crowley > Panic Disorder > Vivid Dreaming and Nightmares > Clive Barker > The Black Arts > Robert Anton Wilson > Discordia > Genesis P Orridge > Timothy Leary > HR Giger > Tentacle Rape > Smoking crack while worshiping the Dark Lord > > With the exception of the tentacle rape and smoking crack it was > pretty much a word-for-word summary of Acidexia. Their lyrics > followed a similar rip-off mentality. Mother of Abominations? I was > writing about that when I was 17. The darker side of chaos magick? > Nope, never been there before! At this point it was just getting > hilarious and I started to see what was actually going on. This > band was trying to run me out by accusing me of "stalking" them so > people wouldn't see that they'd been ripping off my ideas with > their new album. Well here's some news for the entire occult > community: their new album is everything that I wrote about in > Acidexia before I even started Experiment Haywire. > > I'm also curious how much they actually know about chaos magick. > I'm not sure wearing a TOPY necklace counts as much of anything but > I could be wrong. This band wanted attention through having drama > with someone who wasn't well liked in the industrial scene. Now > they've got it. Again. I am sure they will enjoy the occult > attention too. Quit watering down chaos magick with your tribute to > 90's industrial. It's not good for the new paradigm. > > If anyone has any legal advice for me it would be much appreciated. > I apologize for having to post this but I'm not sure what else to > do. I am seriously freaking out. > > Thanks for listening, > Rachel Haywire >

by rms 15y ago

tomflack 15y ago

Please read the following in an exasperated tone of voice, because that's what I feel here. The problem is the very public trashing of kickstarter on her blog, combined with the multitude of people who have had run-ins with Rachael over the past few years calling her "crazy" etc. Allegedly the FBI are uninterested in prosecuting the cyber stalker. However since coming across this today I've seen nothing that indicates they actually exist, or if they do exist, the kind of hateful things they harass with. As far as anyone external to the situation can tell the stalker is either a figment of Rachael's imagination or someone who is going around informing people who potentially might give her money of something she doesn't want them to know. We just don't know. So in light of the very public trashing of kickstarter, it seems only fair we get to see all the evidence publicly as well - like documentary evidence of complaints to the police about the alleged stalker's behaviour. Edit: and instead of downvotes, please tell me why my train of thought on this matter is unreasonable.

rms 15y ago
I believe Kickstarter has an obligation to treat Rachel like a customer. I believe they are capable of building the tool needed to deliver a good experience to customers like Rachel. I don't support the specific language Rachel might have used, but I empathize with Rachel's frustration with Kickstarter's flawed process. I met Rachel a few months ago. She seems nice. I know she has all this weird unresolved drama from the past, but I have a strict no drama allowed rule so I try not to dwell on it. I believe that people can change and become more rational and less dramatic and Rachel seems to be doing really really well, except for all these weird people from alternative music scenes that Rachel somehow made way too angry. I ran across one example of the stalker randomly on the internet yesterday, which was the stalker writing a review of Extreme Futurist Fest saying it was really bad. The review was willfully inaccurate, I was at the event, and it was really good for a new event and the attendees really impressed me with their intellectual caliber. The review was posted unsolicited on a bunch of mailing lists that didn't care, such as the list of the Mormon Transhumanist Association. No, it's utterly ridiculous to post evidence related to ongoing legal matters to the peanut gallery of the internet. Any lawyer or legal TV show will recommend against that.
- tomflack 15y ago
  > No, it's utterly ridiculous to post evidence related to ongoing legal matters to the peanut gallery of the internet. Any lawyer or legal TV show will recommend against that. This is where you and I disagree. Regardless of real-world implications I consider it unethical to use the court of public opinion to court sympathy ("my stalker of 10 years..." "police are doing nothing...") and to trash companies you think have wronged you (this kickstarter affair) without posting all the evidence people ask for, or need, to craft an informed opinion.
  - rms 15y ago
    DH3. http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html
    - tomflack 15y ago
      I don't understand. Care to explain further than that link? Edit: don't bother. It's a needless deviation from the topic of conversation here and I disagree with your interpretation of that link anyway.
- DanBC 15y ago
  > but I have a strict no drama allowed rule You might want to stop feeding this ridiculous thread. IHBT.
  - angersock 15y ago
    Isn't it strange how, whenever that phrase or something similar is transmitted, inevitably drama ensues?
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
paulhauggis 15y ago
Why is it that people like Rachael always have drama around them? I know people like this. Everyone is out to get them and people are always doing something to them (oh yeah, the world needs to know about it). I feel like she probably brought this onto herself somehow. Stalking is serious, if did happen, something needs to be done.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- agent409 15y ago
  She always has drama around her because she has some kind of rockstar vibe, she's hyper, and she has what seems like a limitless supply of enthusiasm and good will. I've seen plenty of people like that get shit all over just because they're happy when other people aren't. It doesn't mean she deserves a stalker. Just sayin'. By comparison I'm a relative nobody, but this same person who stalks Rachel has also stalked me off and on for about a decade because I once told him "no" when he asked me to do something for him I didn't feel comfortable doing. All it takes to trigger stalker-dude is to make him feel slighted in some way.
  - ErrantX 15y ago
    It takes two to tango. That is harsh, but it is a lesson I learned from my stalker. No one deserves to be stalked, and the people that do the stalking and weird and disturbing and evil. But I caused a significant portion of the problem in my drama. Recognising that is a critical step to making them go away. Which is possible.
    - agent409 15y ago
      Of course you are mostly correct and I've expressed this same sentiment to Rachel several times. She understands it, but she doesn't "get" it yet. She's a great target because she does that stress panic thing some people whenever this guy starts messing with her. I'm sure everyone here recognizes that as a maturity/self-control thing, but it comes easier for some than others. Especially in people who have dealt with traumas it can be difficult to stave off an amygdala's hijacking and not freak out. On the other hand, this guy really does go out of his way to harass people on his list. He still randomly mails shit-o-grams from throw-away yahoo or gmail accounts to my old email accounts. I just learned to ignore him and forward the lulz back to the abuse department of his provider. Unfortunately Rachel, when faced with this guy on Kickstarter, thought she needed to tell her supporters what was going on. Kickstarter interpreted that as if she was responding directly to the "spammer" and turned their back. What you say about her learning to not let him under her skin really is a critical step in making him go away. If the squeeky toy stops squeeking, it's no longer fun.
Tichy 15y ago
Kickstarter removed her because of the spamming, which seems to be an indication that the stalker exists. Of course she might have just been talking to herself, but having never heard about her before, I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.
- Drbble 15y ago
  And you've heard about her now. Hmm. Whose interest does that server? Someone who wants to stop her life, or someone who wants to promote and sell tickets to her "transhuman" art projects

jasonlotito 15y ago

The top post has been for a long while not in support of the OP's unsubstantiated claims. I'm fairly certain it's not an accurate representation of anything, however, and suggesting it is is dishonest. A large number, if not majority of posts in this thread are supportive of the "victim," so much so they blindly believe her. > You might have noticed that Hacker News has gone downhill lately. I notice a lot of people here making the assumption the post is 100% correct, with nothing to back it up besides italicized text. If you have some proof of these allegations, provide it. If not, lets not jump to conclusions. > Please be nice everyone. Think seriously before you make a comment. Well, that goes both ways, doesn't it?

mcantelon 15y ago

>I'm friends with Rachel and the stalker dude is real I would keep in mind the possibility that she herself is sending out this stalker material. If she has a history of generating drama, as has been suggested by others from communities she's been previously involved in, creating a stalker is the perfect device. Her account of the stalker's tactics is quite extreme: I've never heard of any case where a cyberstalker has taken things as far as she claims this stalker has. Some evidence would help her case. As an aside, just to let you know where my perspective comes from, I've been involved in the past with noise/industrial music communities and have met some extreme, sociopathic individuals. I also currently have a friend who claims he's stalked but my best guess, after years of knowing him, is that it's a psychological manifestation. He has lost at least one creative deal by sending, out of the blue, abusive electronic communication. People can act in unusual ways, even intelligent, articulate people that are normally personable.

auntjanetreno 15y ago
she had a restraining order on HER for stalking! (Score:0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 14, @12:18PM (#39685675) and also from her own blog: > > Experiment Haywire's Blog > Sign up > Mar 22, 2009 > Prometheus Burning threatens legal action against me for "stalking" > I hate that I need to share this with everyone but I feel that my > legal safety might be in danger and am making this post to ask for > advice. I am currently scared out of my mind. > > Remember the band that called me a "lonely wannabe poser with no > musical skill" and a "hypocritical talentless hack" after staging > public drama with me for publicity? The band that harassed me to > the point where I actually had to call my sick mother for help? My > mother was conservative enough to file a DMCA charge against this > band for posting a private email of mine to the public. While I did > not want this private email posted and felt an extreme sense of > violation I strongly disapproved of my mother's actions regarding > the DMCA. (an organization which I utterly despise) In the end my > mother was in critical medical condition and was simply trying to > get this band to leave me alone- yet when she brought the DMCA into > this I was furious. > > I recently emailed the band and apologized for the actions of my > mother. I mentioned that I liked their music and that I would like > to put the past behind us. I used to be on good terms with this > band. I was a constant promoter of their music and spun them > consistently as a DJ in NYC when nobody else had heard of them. We > had mutual friends and (as far as I saw it) absolutely no reason to > perpetuate any conflict between us. I planned to support them on > tour along with Caustic and The Gothsicles in Atlanta. I figured > that it would be a great time. > > Until they told me the following on a public forum: > > "We have saved every email and message you have sent to Nikki. We > have saved every message, bulletin, etc. you have posted that > mentions us and we have saved every post you ever made on these > forums and others that mention us. Your stalker behavior is well > documented by us and by our lawyer. We have not taken the steps to > get a PFA against you as of yet, but we have more than enough > documentation to do so when we feel it necessary." -Prometheus > Burning > > Just wow. I don't appreciate people making false accusations about > me and I certainly don't appreciate being threatened with a lawyer > for a crime that I did not commit. Most importantly though: do they > have any idea what stalking actually is? As someone who has been > stalked before (and I'm not just talking about ex-boyfriends > failing to leave me alone but an actual sociopath making constant > threats against the lives of me and the people dear to me) I am > strongly offended by the way this band has used the term "stalking" > to refer to my attempt at a peaceful resolution. Stalking is not a > joke. If you have ever been stalked before you know what it's like > to beg for your stalker to leave you alone only to be told not to > further engage him. If you have ever been stalked before you know > what it's like to walk into a public place in fear of your life. If > you have ever been stalked before you know that horrible sinking > feeling you get when your stalker contacts you. It is not a > pleasant feeling. (to say the least) > > Stalking is not something to fuck around with. Accusing someone of > stalking is a lot like accusing someone of domestic abuse. If this > person didn't stalk or abuse you then you are minimizing the > struggles of thousands of individuals who are stalked and abused. > Many of these people have emailed me in tears to confide. Yet now > this band is claiming that I am stalking them. What can I do? I'm > being threatened with legal action for a crime that I did not > commit. A crime that I myself have been a target of. > > At least there is some comic relief to this story. I was trying to > understand the motivation behind all of their harassment. At first > I didn't pay any attention to the messages I was getting from > friends who were telling me this band was now ripping off my vocal > style. I honestly didn't give a fuck because I had other things to > focus on. Yet when they started threatening legal action against me > for "stalking" I went to their myspace page. Behold. > > Did they rip off my vocals? I want to say no because my delivery is > a lot more punk rock but I couldn't help noticing that the lead > singer was now using my same vocal patterns, screaming/talking > style, word emphasis, etc. in their songs. This was not what was > most surprising to me though. What was surprising to me was that > these pseudo-occult types who were avid readers of Acidexia in its > blog form and readers of Generation Hex (the Disinformation chaos > magick anthology that you can find my writing in) were using every > concept I'd written about in Acidexia and Generation Hex for their > band. > > Their "influences" are as follows: > > Self Destructive Behavior > Sensory Deprivation > Transhumanism > Chaos Magick > Traumatic Childhood Experiences > Abusive Relationships > Bi-Polar Depression > Insomnia > Aleister Crowley > Panic Disorder > Vivid Dreaming and Nightmares > Clive Barker > The Black Arts > Robert Anton Wilson > Discordia > Genesis P Orridge > Timothy Leary > HR Giger > Tentacle Rape > Smoking crack while worshiping the Dark Lord > > With the exception of the tentacle rape and smoking crack it was > pretty much a word-for-word summary of Acidexia. Their lyrics > followed a similar rip-off mentality. Mother of Abominations? I was > writing about that when I was 17. The darker side of chaos magick? > Nope, never been there before! At this point it was just getting > hilarious and I started to see what was actually going on. This > band was trying to run me out by accusing me of "stalking" them so > people wouldn't see that they'd been ripping off my ideas with > their new album. Well here's some news for the entire occult > community: their new album is everything that I wrote about in > Acidexia before I even started Experiment Haywire. > > I'm also curious how much they actually know about chaos magick. > I'm not sure wearing a TOPY necklace counts as much of anything but > I could be wrong. This band wanted attention through having drama > with someone who wasn't well liked in the industrial scene. Now > they've got it. Again. I am sure they will enjoy the occult > attention too. Quit watering down chaos magick with your tribute to > 90's industrial. It's not good for the new paradigm. > > If anyone has any legal advice for me it would be much appreciated. > I apologize for having to post this but I'm not sure what else to > do. I am seriously freaking out. > > Thanks for listening, > Rachel Haywire >