4 ms·

Tell HN: Your account can be deleted anytime, for any reason

11 points by LabMechanic 3y ago

Be mindful of the terms of service you're under. Services such as GitHub can delete your account on a whim. "GitHub reserves the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason at any time." https://edit.tosdr.org/points/652 "Bitwarden has the right to suspend or terminate your access to all or any part of the Website at any time, with or without cause, with or without notice, effective immediately." https://edit.tosdr.org/points/6688 "However, Apple reserves the right at all times to determine whether Content is appropriate and in compliance with this Agreement, and may screen, move, refuse, modify and/or remove Content at any time, without prior notice and in its sole discretion, if such Content is found to be in violation of this Agreement or is otherwise objectionable." https://edit.tosdr.org/points/851

elmerfud 3y ago
Because, it's not your account.
k310 3y ago
My favorite take on "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" is an old Ziggy cartoon, which I can't find, with Ziggy looking at a restaurant sign which reads: "We reserve the right to serve refuse to anyone" You will now see that in your mind repeatedly!
- LabMechanic 3y ago
  > "We reserve the right to serve refuse (i.e., garbage) to anyone" Could not find it either, but clever indeed! :) > You will now see that in your mind repeatedly! X)
romanhn 3y ago
Why is this surprising? Should a service be forced to keep accounts running in perpetuity? I think this is pretty standard TOS language applicable to pretty much every service in existence (including those that don't explicitly state it).
- LabMechanic 3y ago
  I want to get a heads-up before you close my account. It's better to give some notice rather than just suddenly deleting it out of the blue. > Should a service be forced to keep accounts running in perpetuity? No, but maybe wait for 3–6 months for inactive accounts before closing them permanently.
  - romanhn 3y ago
    I agree with you as far as inactive accounts go, but these TOS terms are typically targeting accounts that are in violation of some rules. Did you experience this or are you worried it might happen? I've usually been notified way in advance if inactivity was going to result in account suspension (only happened once as far as I remember, so not exactly a frequent occurrence).
    - LabMechanic 3y ago
      I have issue with phrases like "for any reason at any time" and "without notice". If I lose my account, I want a clear reason, not just a general "you violated our Terms of Service" without any specifics. If I am a terrorist, fine, do not notice me, but in all other cases, I expect you to notice me in advance. For example, Dropbox seems reasonable: "If we do so (discontinuing services), we’ll give you reasonable prior notice so that you can export Your Stuff from our systems ..." "We reserve the right to suspend or terminate your access to the Services with notice to you if Dropbox reasonably believes: ..." https://www.dropbox.com/terms
      - bruce511 3y ago
        All business exists between willing buyer and willing seller. If you don't like the terms of the service, then don't use it.
        LabMechanic 3y ago
        Suppose you've paid for content (apps, movies, music, games, or services). If your seller can terminate access at any time and for any reason, are you okay with that? The 'don't like it, don't buy it' sentiment appears shortsighted, especially considering that both Android and iOS are operated by two major corporations. Think of banking apps, for example. Banks usually do not favor a tampered OS. Consider: False Sense of Security: A Study on the Effectivity of Jailbreak Detection in Banking Apps https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8806743 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8806743 PS: Yes, you might use another OS, but how would you do your online banking with it? Explain. Another point to your "don't like it, don't buy it"-argument: Suppose you buy a device; further suppose the state is not involved (no warranty). Your device breaks down the moment you bought it, and there is no refund. How do you deal with that, especially if you are low income?
JLCarveth 3y ago
GitHub -> Gitea Bitwarden -> Vaultwarden Can't kick yourself off your own services. Well you can, but you can also unban yourself.
- LabMechanic 3y ago
  I use KeePassXC to manage passwords. Save the encrypted file (Password.kdbx, 3 kB) wherever you want. Extra points: For emails, buy a domain like mydomain.com for about $15 a year. This lets you have a stable email address (e.g., johndoe@mydomain.com) no matter which email service you use. Consider https://njal.la/ https://njal.la/ or something similar. However, note that: 1337 has the sole right to at any time amend or supplement these Terms. Any such made changes to these Terms will be immediately effective after being posted at the same location as these Terms. https://edit.tosdr.org/points/24274 https://edit.tosdr.org/points/24274 So maybe use another service. I also use Portmaster when I am on Windows. Forget defending against the government, they have state authority (violence, jail time), you don't. See: https://riseup.net/ https://riseup.net/ One-time pad (OTP) or "true randomness" (uniform probability distribution) is your only safe option (as long as they cannot time travel), but do it offline. Don't trust computers, see: Intel ME explained (intel management engine) from insider https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1seNMSamtxM Physics is your only safe haven. Seemingly, everything/everybody has to abide by the law of physics. Even your "almighty" state.
- dormento 3y ago
  > Can't kick yourself off your own services Well actually... > Well you can :P It brings to mind the convenience dillema. How many custom made note taking apps do we really need? How much % of all use cases must an app solve before we collectively declare a problem "solved"?
MakeThemMoney 3y ago
Is an account "content" for Apple?
aijoe5pack 3y ago
[flagged]
muzani 3y ago
Yep, that's why I try to avoid SSO except for evaluating services. SSO is useful for purposely locking people out too, e.g. a work account. Some say just use an email and password, but they can lock you out of your email too! Some sign ins are worse than others though. I'd rate FB as the riskiest, such extreme false positive rates. Followed by Google - if you violate TOS on one account, you could be banned on all the others. Plus they have so many services you can violate. At least Meta doesn't ban your FB and Insta at the same time. Both Google and Meta have allegedly nil customer support too.
PurpleRamen 3y ago
That's standard-contract-chatter, not really news? There are legit reasons for this, but the actual execution is not as rough as it's phrased. In most countries you have local laws which will annul those clauses depending on the circumstances. But of course, in worst case you need to sue them for getting your right. Unless you do something seriously illegal, I would fear accidental deletes more than this. So having backups and fallbacks, is always recommended, even if you trust the company and your behavior.
- LabMechanic 3y ago
  It might not be "news," but God knows how many people are actually aware of terms containing phrases such as "for any reason at any time" and "without notice". As I mentioned here, Dropbox's Terms of Service seem reasonable. They give you a heads-up. That's the minimum I expect.
cpach 3y ago
Yep. Keep backups. And make sure to have a Plan B.
tonymet 3y ago
It’s important to use email + password login for important sites instead of SSO (google, apple, etc). If google ever locks you out, you will also lose access to any sites which depend on Google SSO login.
- behnamoh 3y ago
  if you use email (gmail) + password, you'll lose access anyway.
metadat 3y ago
Yeah, GH a private entity and company.. what did you expect? :-/

11 points by LabMechanic 3y ago

elmerfud 3y ago

Because, it's not your account.

k310 3y ago

My favorite take on "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" is an old Ziggy cartoon, which I can't find, with Ziggy looking at a restaurant sign which reads: "We reserve the right to serve refuse to anyone" You will now see that in your mind repeatedly!

LabMechanic 3y ago
> "We reserve the right to serve refuse (i.e., garbage) to anyone" Could not find it either, but clever indeed! :) > You will now see that in your mind repeatedly! X)

romanhn 3y ago

Why is this surprising? Should a service be forced to keep accounts running in perpetuity? I think this is pretty standard TOS language applicable to pretty much every service in existence (including those that don't explicitly state it).

LabMechanic 3y ago
I want to get a heads-up before you close my account. It's better to give some notice rather than just suddenly deleting it out of the blue. > Should a service be forced to keep accounts running in perpetuity? No, but maybe wait for 3–6 months for inactive accounts before closing them permanently.
- romanhn 3y ago
  I agree with you as far as inactive accounts go, but these TOS terms are typically targeting accounts that are in violation of some rules. Did you experience this or are you worried it might happen? I've usually been notified way in advance if inactivity was going to result in account suspension (only happened once as far as I remember, so not exactly a frequent occurrence).
  - LabMechanic 3y ago
    I have issue with phrases like "for any reason at any time" and "without notice". If I lose my account, I want a clear reason, not just a general "you violated our Terms of Service" without any specifics. If I am a terrorist, fine, do not notice me, but in all other cases, I expect you to notice me in advance. For example, Dropbox seems reasonable: "If we do so (discontinuing services), we’ll give you reasonable prior notice so that you can export Your Stuff from our systems ..." "We reserve the right to suspend or terminate your access to the Services with notice to you if Dropbox reasonably believes: ..." https://www.dropbox.com/terms
    - bruce511 3y ago
      All business exists between willing buyer and willing seller. If you don't like the terms of the service, then don't use it.
      - LabMechanic 3y ago
        Suppose you've paid for content (apps, movies, music, games, or services). If your seller can terminate access at any time and for any reason, are you okay with that? The 'don't like it, don't buy it' sentiment appears shortsighted, especially considering that both Android and iOS are operated by two major corporations. Think of banking apps, for example. Banks usually do not favor a tampered OS. Consider: False Sense of Security: A Study on the Effectivity of Jailbreak Detection in Banking Apps https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8806743 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8806743 PS: Yes, you might use another OS, but how would you do your online banking with it? Explain. Another point to your "don't like it, don't buy it"-argument: Suppose you buy a device; further suppose the state is not involved (no warranty). Your device breaks down the moment you bought it, and there is no refund. How do you deal with that, especially if you are low income?

JLCarveth 3y ago

GitHub -> Gitea Bitwarden -> Vaultwarden Can't kick yourself off your own services. Well you can, but you can also unban yourself.

LabMechanic 3y ago
I use KeePassXC to manage passwords. Save the encrypted file (Password.kdbx, 3 kB) wherever you want. Extra points: For emails, buy a domain like mydomain.com for about $15 a year. This lets you have a stable email address (e.g., johndoe@mydomain.com) no matter which email service you use. Consider https://njal.la/ https://njal.la/ or something similar. However, note that: 1337 has the sole right to at any time amend or supplement these Terms. Any such made changes to these Terms will be immediately effective after being posted at the same location as these Terms. https://edit.tosdr.org/points/24274 https://edit.tosdr.org/points/24274 So maybe use another service. I also use Portmaster when I am on Windows. Forget defending against the government, they have state authority (violence, jail time), you don't. See: https://riseup.net/ https://riseup.net/ One-time pad (OTP) or "true randomness" (uniform probability distribution) is your only safe option (as long as they cannot time travel), but do it offline. Don't trust computers, see: Intel ME explained (intel management engine) from insider https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1seNMSamtxM Physics is your only safe haven. Seemingly, everything/everybody has to abide by the law of physics. Even your "almighty" state.
dormento 3y ago
> Can't kick yourself off your own services Well actually... > Well you can :P It brings to mind the convenience dillema. How many custom made note taking apps do we really need? How much % of all use cases must an app solve before we collectively declare a problem "solved"?

MakeThemMoney 3y ago

Is an account "content" for Apple?

aijoe5pack 3y ago

[flagged]

muzani 3y ago

Yep, that's why I try to avoid SSO except for evaluating services. SSO is useful for purposely locking people out too, e.g. a work account. Some say just use an email and password, but they can lock you out of your email too! Some sign ins are worse than others though. I'd rate FB as the riskiest, such extreme false positive rates. Followed by Google - if you violate TOS on one account, you could be banned on all the others. Plus they have so many services you can violate. At least Meta doesn't ban your FB and Insta at the same time. Both Google and Meta have allegedly nil customer support too.

PurpleRamen 3y ago

That's standard-contract-chatter, not really news? There are legit reasons for this, but the actual execution is not as rough as it's phrased. In most countries you have local laws which will annul those clauses depending on the circumstances. But of course, in worst case you need to sue them for getting your right. Unless you do something seriously illegal, I would fear accidental deletes more than this. So having backups and fallbacks, is always recommended, even if you trust the company and your behavior.

LabMechanic 3y ago
It might not be "news," but God knows how many people are actually aware of terms containing phrases such as "for any reason at any time" and "without notice". As I mentioned here, Dropbox's Terms of Service seem reasonable. They give you a heads-up. That's the minimum I expect.

cpach 3y ago

Yep. Keep backups. And make sure to have a Plan B.

tonymet 3y ago

It’s important to use email + password login for important sites instead of SSO (google, apple, etc). If google ever locks you out, you will also lose access to any sites which depend on Google SSO login.

behnamoh 3y ago
if you use email (gmail) + password, you'll lose access anyway.

metadat 3y ago

Yeah, GH a private entity and company.. what did you expect? :-/