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It's simple. Cats aren't fetching per se. They're playing Chase the Ball, and they bring the ball back so their human can throw it again.

cjaybo 3y ago
Is this not what dogs are doing when playing fetch, as well?
- SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
  It's a game of 2 halves. Two complimentary perspectives.
- davisp 3y ago
  Not necessarily. There’s an entire class of dog breeds literally named “retriever”. A quick search shows the AKC saying the first retriever breed was from the 16th century which means humans have been selectively breeding dogs for this specific behavior for nearly 500 years. Whether or not we consider the basal instinct as retrieval vs some other similar instinct that can be easily used to motivate the retrieval behavior [1], I’d wager most dog owners that have trained (or attempted at least!) would agree that some dogs are just more likely to become good retrievers which to me suggests that there’s more than just a basic pleasure stimulus response. Similar dog behaviors based on breed that I would argue at least point towards instinctual behavior being at least a partial explanation for behavior are herding and live stock protection breeds. Take a quick watch of any of the sheep herding competitions or other fun related videos [2] to see what I mean. However, at the end of the day I also think that most “instincts” are more of a shorthand/stereotype for some set of abstract probabilities that may or may not result in a dog being good or bad at any specifically desired behavior. [1] https://www.wildfowlmag.com/editorial/tips_strategies_wf_instinct_0510/280526 https://www.wildfowlmag.com/editorial/tips_strategies_wf_ins... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2FX9rviEhw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2FX9rviEhw
YiraldyGuber 3y ago
Cats aren't breathing per se. They're inhaling air, and they relax their diaphragm so the air is exhaled again.
- throwaway290 3y ago
  Your "X don't Y per se, they Z" macro take reveals misunderstanding. In the original, Y and Z are different actions with different intent (use human as ball dispenser vs try to make the a human happy like a dog would) whereas you just make your Z to be a technical definition of Y.
  - YiraldyGuber 3y ago
    No matter how many times I read it, I interpret his Z as little more than a technical definition of Y. In both, Y and Z are the same actions. Because we fundamentally disagree on the intent. I don't agree that a cat is engaging in parasitic exploitation of the human toy-thrower, and I don't agree that a dog is toiling in servitude to the thankless human who keeps throwing away the retrieved item. They both love chasing things, they both understand that to chase the thing again they need to return it to the human, and they both appreciate the positive reinforcement, bonding, petting, and attention when they do so.
    - throwaway290 3y ago
      It's just logic. A cat has infinite ways of exercising on its own and actually most cats do just that, so it's pareto principle to think about "playing fetch" as simply convenient way of exercising a chase something that incidentally involves a human throwing things rather than birds or mouse. A dog however simply does not do things on its own much, dogs are maybe even more social than humans and live in packs (dog owner is de facto pack leader). Play is more social for them. Take out peer/leader to play with and half the excitement is gone. Dogs generally would not consider mechanical ball dispenser equally exciting of a partner

cjaybo 3y ago

Is this not what dogs are doing when playing fetch, as well?

SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
It's a game of 2 halves. Two complimentary perspectives.
davisp 3y ago
Not necessarily. There’s an entire class of dog breeds literally named “retriever”. A quick search shows the AKC saying the first retriever breed was from the 16th century which means humans have been selectively breeding dogs for this specific behavior for nearly 500 years. Whether or not we consider the basal instinct as retrieval vs some other similar instinct that can be easily used to motivate the retrieval behavior [1], I’d wager most dog owners that have trained (or attempted at least!) would agree that some dogs are just more likely to become good retrievers which to me suggests that there’s more than just a basic pleasure stimulus response. Similar dog behaviors based on breed that I would argue at least point towards instinctual behavior being at least a partial explanation for behavior are herding and live stock protection breeds. Take a quick watch of any of the sheep herding competitions or other fun related videos [2] to see what I mean. However, at the end of the day I also think that most “instincts” are more of a shorthand/stereotype for some set of abstract probabilities that may or may not result in a dog being good or bad at any specifically desired behavior. [1] https://www.wildfowlmag.com/editorial/tips_strategies_wf_instinct_0510/280526 https://www.wildfowlmag.com/editorial/tips_strategies_wf_ins... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2FX9rviEhw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2FX9rviEhw

YiraldyGuber 3y ago

Cats aren't breathing per se. They're inhaling air, and they relax their diaphragm so the air is exhaled again.

throwaway290 3y ago
Your "X don't Y per se, they Z" macro take reveals misunderstanding. In the original, Y and Z are different actions with different intent (use human as ball dispenser vs try to make the a human happy like a dog would) whereas you just make your Z to be a technical definition of Y.
- YiraldyGuber 3y ago
  No matter how many times I read it, I interpret his Z as little more than a technical definition of Y. In both, Y and Z are the same actions. Because we fundamentally disagree on the intent. I don't agree that a cat is engaging in parasitic exploitation of the human toy-thrower, and I don't agree that a dog is toiling in servitude to the thankless human who keeps throwing away the retrieved item. They both love chasing things, they both understand that to chase the thing again they need to return it to the human, and they both appreciate the positive reinforcement, bonding, petting, and attention when they do so.
  - throwaway290 3y ago
    It's just logic. A cat has infinite ways of exercising on its own and actually most cats do just that, so it's pareto principle to think about "playing fetch" as simply convenient way of exercising a chase something that incidentally involves a human throwing things rather than birds or mouse. A dog however simply does not do things on its own much, dogs are maybe even more social than humans and live in packs (dog owner is de facto pack leader). Play is more social for them. Take out peer/leader to play with and half the excitement is gone. Dogs generally would not consider mechanical ball dispenser equally exciting of a partner