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Can you elaborate? I was personally so happy with Pixel4 that I've decided to buy a new version when my phone lost support. I didn't have any specific problems,

Can you elaborate? I was personally so happy with Pixel4 that I've decided to buy a new version when my phone lost support. I didn't have any specific problems, I didn't feel like I was forced by Google to do things I don't like, and when I started caring about privacy even more, I changed my OS to Graphene (something you can't easily do on Apple owned device, I believe). They're not perfect, but I'm genuinely interested what was the show stopper for you.

fsflover 3y ago
> I'm genuinely interested what was the show stopper for you For some people, directly supporting a huge, unethical, advertising company with money is a show stopper. > when my phone lost support This is another serious problem: e-waste. My phone will not loose support, ever.
- 8organicbits 3y ago
  What phone never loses support? I'd expect that cell network changes alone invalidate that claim.
  - fsflover 3y ago
    I don't think that the OP was talking about the cell network changes when they said that the phone had lost support. GNU/Linux phones (Librem 5 and Pinephone) will never loose software support, since they run mainline Linux. Also, Librem 5 has a replaceable modem.
    - rollcat 3y ago
      Oh, Purism. The guys who included a separate chip to deny the user the ability to upgrade the firmware, so that they could meet FSF's completely arbitrary requirements for a honorary badge of freedom (see the hypocrisy?), but neglected an IOMMU, so the baseband (or any other device on the bus) can wreak unlimited havoc (see the irony?). Great alternative indeed.
      - fsflover 3y ago
        > separate chip to deny the user the ability to upgrade the firmware This is false: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26784382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26784382 and https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/pcos2x/would_it_be_possible_to_put_grapheneos_on_the/hbbmez5/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/pcos2x/would_it_be_... > neglected an IOMMU, so the baseband (or any other device on the bus) can wreak unlimited havoc The Librem 5 doesn't need an IOMMU, because it uses separated components, and it uses serial buses (USB 2.0/3.0, SDIO, I2C and I2S) that don't allow direct memory access, so there is absolute no chance of the WiFi/BT, cellular modem, GNSS and USB controller being able to access the RAM or the SoC's cache From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30769589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30769589 Do you think that all laptops are also totally insecure, since they use USB?
        lightedman 3y ago
        "No chance of DMA access" The USB URB structure have a field named 'dma_addr_t transfer_dma', used for DMA access. I've abused that to chain vulnerabilities. To boot, it is possible to develop an I2C-B2C or SPI bus master which is capable of DMA toward the host memory. Linux 2.5 kernels and later, USB device drivers have additional control over how DMA may be used to perform I/O operations. Do any of these guys actually read the hardware specs or do any real hardware hacking?
    - graphe 3y ago
      Commadore 64 also hasn't lost support and McDonald's made a new Gameboy game. Android runs mainline Linux. The Linux phone has no benefits.
      - fsflover 3y ago
        My Librem 5 currently runs Linux 6.4. Which Android runs it?
        graphe 3y ago
        I don't know, Google integrated the mainline Linux kernel a while ago. Probably most of the modern ones. PostmarketOS fills the plaything niche like the Librium 5 and pinephone do but much cheaper with much better old hardware. Aside from a checkmark of running the latest kernel and hardware switches what can the librem 5 do an Android phone can't do much better? They aren't good phones.
        fsflover 3y ago
        Lifetime updates, no proprietary drivers, support of tens of different operating systems, schematics, openPGP card, desktop apps and convergence, verifiable security.
        graphe 3y ago
        Those are features but not descriptions of good uses. Running a small laptop or steam deck fulfills all of that and much more and I've yet to see an instance where it's a good use. Again it sounds like a plaything to tinker with, with no real world use as a phone or computer. Can you name any good real world uses?
        fsflover 3y ago
        > Running a small laptop or steam deck fulfills all of that Why on earth do you need two separate devices (phone and laptop), when you can use one for both use cases (phone with convergence)? No synchronization or double-backups and maintenance required. Also, decreasing the amount of e-waste is a good thing as well as fighting with the user-restricting duopoly. It looks like for you Linux itself is also just for tinkering, since you can already do everything with Windows and MacOS, isn't it?
noirscape 3y ago
I wouldn't hold up GrapheneOS as a good example of more freedom compared to Apple or Google tbh. Their device depreciation policy is literally just Google, they refuse to support anything that isn't a Pixel (because of the security chip, although as I understand it, there's other manufacturers who could probably work as well - Pixel is simply chosen because Google promised to open up the microcode on the security chip, which hasn't happened yet) and their stance on user privacy is so extreme that it gets in the way of user freedom - they literally offer their own SafetyNet implementation and are aggressively against rooting whilst refusing to understand why people root to begin with (the most common reasons is by far hosts based adblocking and their recommendation, VPN based adblocking, gets in the way of a normal day-to-day VPN or something like Tailscale). (Relatedly - the toxicity problems of their community against criticism of GOS or even being interested in non-GrapheneOS privacy projects are well known at this point and with a smaller community, you're bound to run into something that isn't answered on the general internet at some point. This makes that component somewhat unavoidable. I've never seen a non-corporate, non-FSF run community be such extreme NIH types.) For freedom, I'd moreso point towards projects like LineageOS.
- throwawayapples 3y ago
  > I wouldn't hold up GrapheneOS as a good example of more freedom compared to Apple or Google tbh. I don't see why we can't have both, but this doesn't really a fair criticism of GP's comment. The specific word GP used was 'privacy', not 'freedom', and you are attacking GrapheneOS's stance on the latter, not the former. GrapheneOS is more focused on privacy over freedom, as you said ("their stance on user privacy is so extreme that it gets in the way of user freedom"). They have chosen to prioritize one over the other. > For freedom, I'd moreso point towards projects like LineageOS. This might be true, but LineageOS doesn't have access to microcode either, and certainly GrapheneOS is more 'private' than Lineage, assuming that GrapheneOS hasn't been compromised either internally or at some point in the AOSS supply chain. Except for niche mfgs like PinePhone et al, Google is probably the most free of the major manufacturers (ironically, less private but more free). I agree that we should aim for both freedom (as in free speech, not necessarily as in free beer although it'd be nice!) and privacy. Both are critically important, and the efficacy of the latter depends in large part on the former.
mrweasel 3y ago
> They're not perfect, but I'm genuinely interested what was the show stopper for you. Not OP, but: Google. I don't believe Google can be trusted with Android. I'm stuck with the iPhone, or getting a phone that can run CalyxOS, because I basically only need apps that a solely available in the Play Store. The thing is, I don't care for messing around and trying to make my phone work and flashing alternative operating system. So I'm stuck on the iPhone, because I trust Apple slightly more than Google.
Goronmon 3y ago
Can you elaborate? I was personally so happy with Pixel4 that I've decided to buy a new version when my phone lost support. I still use Android, but the lifespan of every Android device I've ever owned is two years or less. They just don't survive that long. Whether it was the old Nexus 7 tablet that hit a boot loop issue, or charging issues that I've run into on most Pixel phones. My previous pixel even had to be repaired (thankfully under warranty) because of the charge port failing. But again it died 6 months later right around the 2 year mark. The only saving grace is that I'm usually spending around $300 for the Pixel phones, so it's still likely cheaper than if a bought a higher end Samsung that lasted longer. Funnily enough, the longest lasting "Google" device I've owned is a ChromeOS Lenovo Duet that I purchased back in 2020. The tablet is decidely sluggish these days, so I don't really use it anymore, but at least it still functions.
jandrese 3y ago
Of the three Pixel6a phones I bought for family members less than a year ago two have had their eSIM support mysteriously and permanently stop working, and one has had its physical SIM stop working. Unfortunately, those failures were not evenly spread and now one phone is completely without cell service. Google's tech support response is basically "Wow, sucks to be you". Was quite the 180 compared to taking an iPhone into the Apple store.

fsflover 3y ago

> I'm genuinely interested what was the show stopper for you For some people, directly supporting a huge, unethical, advertising company with money is a show stopper. > when my phone lost support This is another serious problem: e-waste. My phone will not loose support, ever.

8organicbits 3y ago
What phone never loses support? I'd expect that cell network changes alone invalidate that claim.
- fsflover 3y ago
  I don't think that the OP was talking about the cell network changes when they said that the phone had lost support. GNU/Linux phones (Librem 5 and Pinephone) will never loose software support, since they run mainline Linux. Also, Librem 5 has a replaceable modem.
  - rollcat 3y ago
    Oh, Purism. The guys who included a separate chip to deny the user the ability to upgrade the firmware, so that they could meet FSF's completely arbitrary requirements for a honorary badge of freedom (see the hypocrisy?), but neglected an IOMMU, so the baseband (or any other device on the bus) can wreak unlimited havoc (see the irony?). Great alternative indeed.
    - fsflover 3y ago
      > separate chip to deny the user the ability to upgrade the firmware This is false: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26784382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26784382 and https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/pcos2x/would_it_be_possible_to_put_grapheneos_on_the/hbbmez5/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/pcos2x/would_it_be_... > neglected an IOMMU, so the baseband (or any other device on the bus) can wreak unlimited havoc The Librem 5 doesn't need an IOMMU, because it uses separated components, and it uses serial buses (USB 2.0/3.0, SDIO, I2C and I2S) that don't allow direct memory access, so there is absolute no chance of the WiFi/BT, cellular modem, GNSS and USB controller being able to access the RAM or the SoC's cache From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30769589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30769589 Do you think that all laptops are also totally insecure, since they use USB?
      - lightedman 3y ago
        "No chance of DMA access" The USB URB structure have a field named 'dma_addr_t transfer_dma', used for DMA access. I've abused that to chain vulnerabilities. To boot, it is possible to develop an I2C-B2C or SPI bus master which is capable of DMA toward the host memory. Linux 2.5 kernels and later, USB device drivers have additional control over how DMA may be used to perform I/O operations. Do any of these guys actually read the hardware specs or do any real hardware hacking?
  - graphe 3y ago
    Commadore 64 also hasn't lost support and McDonald's made a new Gameboy game. Android runs mainline Linux. The Linux phone has no benefits.
    - fsflover 3y ago
      My Librem 5 currently runs Linux 6.4. Which Android runs it?
      - graphe 3y ago
        I don't know, Google integrated the mainline Linux kernel a while ago. Probably most of the modern ones. PostmarketOS fills the plaything niche like the Librium 5 and pinephone do but much cheaper with much better old hardware. Aside from a checkmark of running the latest kernel and hardware switches what can the librem 5 do an Android phone can't do much better? They aren't good phones.
        fsflover 3y ago
        Lifetime updates, no proprietary drivers, support of tens of different operating systems, schematics, openPGP card, desktop apps and convergence, verifiable security.
        graphe 3y ago
        Those are features but not descriptions of good uses. Running a small laptop or steam deck fulfills all of that and much more and I've yet to see an instance where it's a good use. Again it sounds like a plaything to tinker with, with no real world use as a phone or computer. Can you name any good real world uses?
        fsflover 3y ago
        > Running a small laptop or steam deck fulfills all of that Why on earth do you need two separate devices (phone and laptop), when you can use one for both use cases (phone with convergence)? No synchronization or double-backups and maintenance required. Also, decreasing the amount of e-waste is a good thing as well as fighting with the user-restricting duopoly. It looks like for you Linux itself is also just for tinkering, since you can already do everything with Windows and MacOS, isn't it?

noirscape 3y ago

I wouldn't hold up GrapheneOS as a good example of more freedom compared to Apple or Google tbh. Their device depreciation policy is literally just Google, they refuse to support anything that isn't a Pixel (because of the security chip, although as I understand it, there's other manufacturers who could probably work as well - Pixel is simply chosen because Google promised to open up the microcode on the security chip, which hasn't happened yet) and their stance on user privacy is so extreme that it gets in the way of user freedom - they literally offer their own SafetyNet implementation and are aggressively against rooting whilst refusing to understand why people root to begin with (the most common reasons is by far hosts based adblocking and their recommendation, VPN based adblocking, gets in the way of a normal day-to-day VPN or something like Tailscale). (Relatedly - the toxicity problems of their community against criticism of GOS or even being interested in non-GrapheneOS privacy projects are well known at this point and with a smaller community, you're bound to run into something that isn't answered on the general internet at some point. This makes that component somewhat unavoidable. I've never seen a non-corporate, non-FSF run community be such extreme NIH types.) For freedom, I'd moreso point towards projects like LineageOS.

throwawayapples 3y ago
> I wouldn't hold up GrapheneOS as a good example of more freedom compared to Apple or Google tbh. I don't see why we can't have both, but this doesn't really a fair criticism of GP's comment. The specific word GP used was 'privacy', not 'freedom', and you are attacking GrapheneOS's stance on the latter, not the former. GrapheneOS is more focused on privacy over freedom, as you said ("their stance on user privacy is so extreme that it gets in the way of user freedom"). They have chosen to prioritize one over the other. > For freedom, I'd moreso point towards projects like LineageOS. This might be true, but LineageOS doesn't have access to microcode either, and certainly GrapheneOS is more 'private' than Lineage, assuming that GrapheneOS hasn't been compromised either internally or at some point in the AOSS supply chain. Except for niche mfgs like PinePhone et al, Google is probably the most free of the major manufacturers (ironically, less private but more free). I agree that we should aim for both freedom (as in free speech, not necessarily as in free beer although it'd be nice!) and privacy. Both are critically important, and the efficacy of the latter depends in large part on the former.

mrweasel 3y ago

> They're not perfect, but I'm genuinely interested what was the show stopper for you. Not OP, but: Google. I don't believe Google can be trusted with Android. I'm stuck with the iPhone, or getting a phone that can run CalyxOS, because I basically only need apps that a solely available in the Play Store. The thing is, I don't care for messing around and trying to make my phone work and flashing alternative operating system. So I'm stuck on the iPhone, because I trust Apple slightly more than Google.

Goronmon 3y ago

Can you elaborate? I was personally so happy with Pixel4 that I've decided to buy a new version when my phone lost support. I still use Android, but the lifespan of every Android device I've ever owned is two years or less. They just don't survive that long. Whether it was the old Nexus 7 tablet that hit a boot loop issue, or charging issues that I've run into on most Pixel phones. My previous pixel even had to be repaired (thankfully under warranty) because of the charge port failing. But again it died 6 months later right around the 2 year mark. The only saving grace is that I'm usually spending around $300 for the Pixel phones, so it's still likely cheaper than if a bought a higher end Samsung that lasted longer. Funnily enough, the longest lasting "Google" device I've owned is a ChromeOS Lenovo Duet that I purchased back in 2020. The tablet is decidely sluggish these days, so I don't really use it anymore, but at least it still functions.

jandrese 3y ago

Of the three Pixel6a phones I bought for family members less than a year ago two have had their eSIM support mysteriously and permanently stop working, and one has had its physical SIM stop working. Unfortunately, those failures were not evenly spread and now one phone is completely without cell service. Google's tech support response is basically "Wow, sucks to be you". Was quite the 180 compared to taking an iPhone into the Apple store.