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Money laundering is not "making money through illicit means" as many people confuse it with. Money laundering is the act of concealing that money, so that it be

Money laundering is not "making money through illicit means" as many people confuse it with. Money laundering is the act of concealing that money, so that it becomes clean money in the face of any curious observer. They often go hand in hand but they are different things. An example, you have 1M cash but you need it in your bank account, because you want to buy a house or a car or groceries. If you just go to your bank with 1M in a briefcase a lot of people are going to ask you "where did that money came from?". But if you do ???? and you have a legit (or legit enough) excuse for that, you may get away with it and now you can use your money and people think you're a mastermind entrepreneur or something. There's a reason why the first money launderers were laundromats and similar businesses, anything with plausible cash flow, because then you can go to the bank and tell them "I just run a very successful laundry business, and that's why I have a big bunch of $10 and $20 bills, some of them may have a bit of blood in them, though". Much more complex ways exist but the gist of it is this. If you take legit money from someone's bank account, move it through Apple, then send it to Chile(?), then take it out(?) that's literally the opposite of what you'd like to achieve, hence why this argument is so absurd.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Money laundering is not "making money through illicit means" This is correct. > Money laundering is the act of concealing that money, so that it becomes clean money in the face of any curious observer This is the middle step, layering. Before that is placement, introducing the funds into the financial system; after, integration, withdrawing clean money. Here, stealing the credit cards is the original crime. That per se is not money laundering. Running them is analogous to placement. Mixing those stolen numbers with people who legitimately forgot to cancel their subscriptions is layering. Getting a bank deposit from Apple: integration. (Banks won't question deposits from Apple.) That process, altogether, is absolutely money laundering. The stolen credit cards are actually irrelevant. If the developer's dirty sources need to layer their funds, they can subscribe to the app and have it laundered for a meagre 30% haircut. Do that across a number of assumed identities and it's a decent cottage money-laundering operation. > it almost always involves putting cash into a bank account It very rarely does anymore. Certainly not at scale.
- moralestapia 3y ago
  >it almost always involves putting cash into a bank account Yeah, I edited my comment shortly after but you were already writing this probably. Only an observation, it almost always starts as money flowing into a bank account, though. >If the developer's dirty sources need to layer their funds, they can subscribe to the app and have it laundered for a meagre 30% haircut. No, because you cannot pay for apps with cash. If you already have cash into a bank account somewhere in the world then ... you most likely don't have the need to conceal it anymore. Buy shitcoin, send it to a tax haven, whatever, why would you make it dirty again by sending it to (of all damn options) Apple. Lol.
  - spondylosaurus 3y ago
    A (stolen) credit card isn't cash. The whole operation here is to turn someone else's credit line into usable funds. But also, why would sending funds to Apple make them dirty? That doesn't make sense—as GP pointed out, sending funds to Apple so that Apple sends those funds back to you is what makes the money clean. It's the difference between depositing $50k in your bank account from a drug deal and getting a $50k direct deposit from Apple's developer program. The latter won't raise a single eyebrow.
    - moralestapia 3y ago
      >sending funds to Apple so that Apple sends those funds back to you is what makes the money clean No, because it is extremely easy for anyone to see that these funds came from an illegal activity, Apple would just say "these were stolen credit cards" within hours of it happening. That's the literal opposite of concealing the origin of money.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > If you already have cash into a bank account somewhere in the world then ... you most likely don't have the need to conceal it anymore This is where you’re going repeatedly wrong. Most money laundering doesn’t involve cash. If you embezzle funds, or defraud an investor, you wind up with dirty money in a bank account. While it’s there, it’s hot. You could do the crypto trade, but you’d still be in a position of holding cash (even in a tax haven, depositing loads of cash is expensive) and/or having a tainted account. Running it through Apple yields a bank account tied to a developer entity that receives deposits from Apple. You can leave your money in that account without too many worries for extended periods of time, and produce KYC receipts to wary counterparties when asked to. That’s valuable.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> Money laundering is not "making money through illicit means" This is correct. > Money laundering is the act of concealing that money, so that it becomes clean money in the face of any curious observer This is the middle step, layering. Before that is placement, introducing the funds into the financial system; after, integration, withdrawing clean money. Here, stealing the credit cards is the original crime. That per se is not money laundering. Running them is analogous to placement. Mixing those stolen numbers with people who legitimately forgot to cancel their subscriptions is layering. Getting a bank deposit from Apple: integration. (Banks won't question deposits from Apple.) That process, altogether, is absolutely money laundering. The stolen credit cards are actually irrelevant. If the developer's dirty sources need to layer their funds, they can subscribe to the app and have it laundered for a meagre 30% haircut. Do that across a number of assumed identities and it's a decent cottage money-laundering operation. > it almost always involves putting cash into a bank account It very rarely does anymore. Certainly not at scale.

moralestapia 3y ago
>it almost always involves putting cash into a bank account Yeah, I edited my comment shortly after but you were already writing this probably. Only an observation, it almost always starts as money flowing into a bank account, though. >If the developer's dirty sources need to layer their funds, they can subscribe to the app and have it laundered for a meagre 30% haircut. No, because you cannot pay for apps with cash. If you already have cash into a bank account somewhere in the world then ... you most likely don't have the need to conceal it anymore. Buy shitcoin, send it to a tax haven, whatever, why would you make it dirty again by sending it to (of all damn options) Apple. Lol.
- spondylosaurus 3y ago
  A (stolen) credit card isn't cash. The whole operation here is to turn someone else's credit line into usable funds. But also, why would sending funds to Apple make them dirty? That doesn't make sense—as GP pointed out, sending funds to Apple so that Apple sends those funds back to you is what makes the money clean. It's the difference between depositing $50k in your bank account from a drug deal and getting a $50k direct deposit from Apple's developer program. The latter won't raise a single eyebrow.
  - moralestapia 3y ago
    >sending funds to Apple so that Apple sends those funds back to you is what makes the money clean No, because it is extremely easy for anyone to see that these funds came from an illegal activity, Apple would just say "these were stolen credit cards" within hours of it happening. That's the literal opposite of concealing the origin of money.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > If you already have cash into a bank account somewhere in the world then ... you most likely don't have the need to conceal it anymore This is where you’re going repeatedly wrong. Most money laundering doesn’t involve cash. If you embezzle funds, or defraud an investor, you wind up with dirty money in a bank account. While it’s there, it’s hot. You could do the crypto trade, but you’d still be in a position of holding cash (even in a tax haven, depositing loads of cash is expensive) and/or having a tainted account. Running it through Apple yields a bank account tied to a developer entity that receives deposits from Apple. You can leave your money in that account without too many worries for extended periods of time, and produce KYC receipts to wary counterparties when asked to. That’s valuable.