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> OpenAI defines AGI as autonomous systems that surpass humans in most economically valuable tasks. Are we really defining intelligence as economic value at th

> OpenAI defines AGI as autonomous systems that surpass humans in most economically valuable tasks. Are we really defining intelligence as economic value at this point? This is completely ridiculous. We have yet to decide exactly what human intelligence, how it manifests in the body, or how to reliably measure it. I get that people want to justify developing artificial intelligence before understanding intelligence itself, but now we assume that economic value is a proxy for intelligence? Seriously?

gryfft 3y ago
I'm as left leaning as HN commenters get, I think, and in terms of quacking like a duck, "surpassing humans in most economically valuable tasks" is 100% the meaningful Turing test in a capitalist society.
- _heimdall 3y ago
  Take capitalism out of it, do we really want to boil down intelligence to a calculation of expected economic value? Why force the term intelligence into it at all if what were talking about is simply automation? We don't have to bastardize the term intelligence along the way, especially when we have spent centuries considering what human intelligence is and how it separates us from other species on the planet.
  - gryfft 3y ago
    > Take capitalism out of it, do we really want to boil down intelligence to a calculation of expected economic value? It's a lovely sentiment, but do you expect e.g. universities to start handing out degrees on the basis of human dignity rather than a series of tests whose ultimate purpose in our society is boiling down intelligence to a calculation of expected economic value? We live in the world we live in and we have the measures we have. It's not about lofty ideals, it's about whether or not it can measurably do what a human does. If I told you that my pillow is sentient and deserving of love and dignity, you have the choice of taking me at my word or finding a way to put my money where my mouth is. It's the same reason the world's best poker players aren't found by playing against each other with Monopoly money. > Why force the term intelligence into it at all if what were talking about is simply automation? In what world is modern AI "simply" anything? > we have spent centuries considering what human intelligence is and how it separates us from other species on the planet. Dolphins would like a word. There's more than a few philosophers who would argue that maybe our "intelligence" isn't so easily definable or special in the universe. There are zero successful capitalists who would pay my pillow or a dolphin to perform artificial intelligence research. That's what I mean when I call it the meaningful Turing test in a capitalist society. You can't just "take capitalism out of it." If I could just "take capitalism out" of anything meaningful I wouldn't be sitting here posting in this hell we're constructing. You may as well tell me to "take measurement out of it."
nexuist 3y ago
If it makes money who cares if it counts as real intelligence? If we can automate ourselves into a post scarcity society then everyone and everything is free to be as intelligent and as stupid as it desires.
- _heimdall 3y ago
  It'd be one thing if their goal was to build ML tools that they want to market as AI, but they explicitly aim to develop an artificial general intelligence. There's a mountain of risks and ethical questions that we should be answering before even attempting such a goal, and for them to waive it off under the banner of "intelligence is just economic value" is dangerous and horribly irresponsible. If we can automate ourselves into a post scarcity society then everyone and everything is free to be as intelligent and as stupid as it desires. Even an AGI can't create natural resources out of thin, post scarcity is a pipe dream that at best means we kicked the can down the road. Based on our actions, society doesn't actually even want to be automated away for a simple life of freedoms where all the basics of life are taken care of. We could have done that a long time ago, instead we just raise the bar and continue to make life more complicated and grow the list of "necessities". People seem to need a sense of purpose in life, taking that away with an AGI-powered system that gives them everything the AGI deems necessary wouldn't end well.
xcv123 3y ago
An example of an important human task that is not "economically valuable" in this sense, is caregiving within a family, such as parenting, since parents are not employed in that role. OpenAI is not setting the goal post that far, to say that they are aiming to develop a machine that is superior to humans at all tasks, including such tasks as raising a human child. That would be ridiculous. Focusing on "economically valuable" tasks (the jobs that humans are employed and paid to do) sets the goal post more realistically.

gryfft 3y ago

I'm as left leaning as HN commenters get, I think, and in terms of quacking like a duck, "surpassing humans in most economically valuable tasks" is 100% the meaningful Turing test in a capitalist society.

_heimdall 3y ago
Take capitalism out of it, do we really want to boil down intelligence to a calculation of expected economic value? Why force the term intelligence into it at all if what were talking about is simply automation? We don't have to bastardize the term intelligence along the way, especially when we have spent centuries considering what human intelligence is and how it separates us from other species on the planet.
- gryfft 3y ago
  > Take capitalism out of it, do we really want to boil down intelligence to a calculation of expected economic value? It's a lovely sentiment, but do you expect e.g. universities to start handing out degrees on the basis of human dignity rather than a series of tests whose ultimate purpose in our society is boiling down intelligence to a calculation of expected economic value? We live in the world we live in and we have the measures we have. It's not about lofty ideals, it's about whether or not it can measurably do what a human does. If I told you that my pillow is sentient and deserving of love and dignity, you have the choice of taking me at my word or finding a way to put my money where my mouth is. It's the same reason the world's best poker players aren't found by playing against each other with Monopoly money. > Why force the term intelligence into it at all if what were talking about is simply automation? In what world is modern AI "simply" anything? > we have spent centuries considering what human intelligence is and how it separates us from other species on the planet. Dolphins would like a word. There's more than a few philosophers who would argue that maybe our "intelligence" isn't so easily definable or special in the universe. There are zero successful capitalists who would pay my pillow or a dolphin to perform artificial intelligence research. That's what I mean when I call it the meaningful Turing test in a capitalist society. You can't just "take capitalism out of it." If I could just "take capitalism out" of anything meaningful I wouldn't be sitting here posting in this hell we're constructing. You may as well tell me to "take measurement out of it."

nexuist 3y ago

If it makes money who cares if it counts as real intelligence? If we can automate ourselves into a post scarcity society then everyone and everything is free to be as intelligent and as stupid as it desires.

_heimdall 3y ago
It'd be one thing if their goal was to build ML tools that they want to market as AI, but they explicitly aim to develop an artificial general intelligence. There's a mountain of risks and ethical questions that we should be answering before even attempting such a goal, and for them to waive it off under the banner of "intelligence is just economic value" is dangerous and horribly irresponsible. If we can automate ourselves into a post scarcity society then everyone and everything is free to be as intelligent and as stupid as it desires. Even an AGI can't create natural resources out of thin, post scarcity is a pipe dream that at best means we kicked the can down the road. Based on our actions, society doesn't actually even want to be automated away for a simple life of freedoms where all the basics of life are taken care of. We could have done that a long time ago, instead we just raise the bar and continue to make life more complicated and grow the list of "necessities". People seem to need a sense of purpose in life, taking that away with an AGI-powered system that gives them everything the AGI deems necessary wouldn't end well.

xcv123 3y ago

An example of an important human task that is not "economically valuable" in this sense, is caregiving within a family, such as parenting, since parents are not employed in that role. OpenAI is not setting the goal post that far, to say that they are aiming to develop a machine that is superior to humans at all tasks, including such tasks as raising a human child. That would be ridiculous. Focusing on "economically valuable" tasks (the jobs that humans are employed and paid to do) sets the goal post more realistically.