4 ms·

>the more open, free LLM community open source software has always been ultimately of and in service of the capitalists

jerojero 3y ago
I guess when you make the distinction between open source and free software it can be that way. Free software is definitely an anti-capitalist movement. And, personally, I think although open source is useful to capitalists (it can give you an edge in terms of people's perception but also it can be seen as free labor) generally, open source benefits society as a whole and it would function all the same in any sort of economic system. So yeah, I mean, I kind of agree? But at what point would we be willing to say "air has always been in service of capitalists" or something.
- xkekjrktllss 3y ago
  The same goes for free software too. It may be "anti-capitalist" in sentiment, but it's just foolery as political practice. It's anarchist and cathartic at best. It is understandable that technologists could be inclined to convince themselves otherwise and it's understandable that capitalists profiting from it would parrot such nonsense, but that doesn't make it so. You can't do politics without doing politics.
- jrm4 3y ago
  Free software is emphatically not definitely an anti-capitalist movement; if it was it would say so. It's a pro-freedom movement; it may incidentally screw up business models in the name of protecting freedom, but doesn't say much about "capitalism" directly. (Hence my above comment about the problem with the word "capitalism?")
  - blooalien 3y ago
    You're exactly right. Pro-freedom does not equal anti-capitalism. Matter of fact, the GNU licenses (among the more popular free software licenses) in no way prohibit making money off your (or someone else's) free software. They just specify certain terms under which the software can be used and / or shared. Beyond that, within the law, you can go ahead and make all the money you want with it, in any way that doesn't break any laws or license terms.
malfist 3y ago
That's a pretty bold claim. You're saying the open source blog I host on my personal domain is in service to capitalists? That's news to me
- wredue 3y ago
  The definition of Open Source is owned, operated, and in service to capitalists.
- xkekjrktllss 3y ago
  In aggregate, open source software under capitalism will always be of and in service of capitalists. All exceptions are simply that; exceptions with no potential to be anything more without a new political economic system of relations.
nabogh 3y ago
How so? GNU licensed software cannot be built on by large companies without them publishing the source code. You think they want that?
- klntsky 3y ago
  Yes. They also don't want competition. That's why opensource won.
- xkekjrktllss 3y ago
  Of course. Large companies already have business plans. They just need software to implement them, and GNU gives them exactly that for free! Who do you think uses that stuff? Your parents?
jrm4 3y ago
Ugh, this is why the word "Capitalism" is so increasingly useless. There is "commerce," a thing that, like it or not, we're probably going to be doing for some time and is overwhelmingly likely inherently neutral. Then there's something else, which is definitely bad, but needs clearer definitions.
- xkekjrktllss 3y ago
  Capitalism is an economic system in which capital is accumulated and reinvested for profit, and that is exactly what I'm talking about. It's a perfectly good word.
jchw 3y ago
Things that benefit everybody may sometimes disproportionately benefit some entities more than others, but that is the price of having something that's indiscriminately beneficial to everyone. On the other hand, the amount of people who get to benefit from those things is still vastly greater than something that is limited to benefiting just an exclusive group. If anything, I think the way a lot of open source software winds up playing out just makes the economy a bit more efficient. Everyone does not have to write Apache or Nginx, or pay a lot of money for it. Everyone, from Spotify to some guy named Eric, can run Nginx on a server and do interesting things with it. I'm all for fixing wealth inequality but blaming open source for it seems like a terrible mistake. Open source software certainly didn't cause the wealth inequality of our society, and it's not even clear it has yet made it much worse.
- xkekjrktllss 3y ago
  >Open source software certainly didn't cause the wealth inequality of our society And it certainly does nothing to change it either, but we all have to pretend otherwise because our jobs depend on us drinking the kool-aid.
  - jchw 3y ago
    Personally, I don't feel a pressure to do that. It's not even really necessary, because while it may not solve all of society's problems, it's still a clear mutually beneficial relationship in the long run.
  - Buxato 3y ago
    Open Source improved the world, from health, to 3d printing FFF, to learning, to start a business around it, ... and is continue giving a lot of opportunities in both education, research and business creation. But definitely it will not change inequality, but its contributions in the society are huge. Inequality will always exist, because we are not equal, not same intelligence, not same beauty, not same risk adversity, not same luck, not same environment...
dartos 3y ago
You can make that argument about literally anything. Anything is in the service of those who take advantage of it. Another fact you may find surprising: water is wet.

I guess when you make the distinction between open source and free software it can be that way. Free software is definitely an anti-capitalist movement. And, personally, I think although open source is useful to capitalists (it can give you an edge in terms of people's perception but also it can be seen as free labor) generally, open source benefits society as a whole and it would function all the same in any sort of economic system. So yeah, I mean, I kind of agree? But at what point would we be willing to say "air has always been in service of capitalists" or something.

xkekjrktllss 3y ago
The same goes for free software too. It may be "anti-capitalist" in sentiment, but it's just foolery as political practice. It's anarchist and cathartic at best. It is understandable that technologists could be inclined to convince themselves otherwise and it's understandable that capitalists profiting from it would parrot such nonsense, but that doesn't make it so. You can't do politics without doing politics.
jrm4 3y ago
Free software is emphatically not definitely an anti-capitalist movement; if it was it would say so. It's a pro-freedom movement; it may incidentally screw up business models in the name of protecting freedom, but doesn't say much about "capitalism" directly. (Hence my above comment about the problem with the word "capitalism?")
- blooalien 3y ago
  You're exactly right. Pro-freedom does not equal anti-capitalism. Matter of fact, the GNU licenses (among the more popular free software licenses) in no way prohibit making money off your (or someone else's) free software. They just specify certain terms under which the software can be used and / or shared. Beyond that, within the law, you can go ahead and make all the money you want with it, in any way that doesn't break any laws or license terms.

malfist 3y ago

That's a pretty bold claim. You're saying the open source blog I host on my personal domain is in service to capitalists? That's news to me

wredue 3y ago
The definition of Open Source is owned, operated, and in service to capitalists.
xkekjrktllss 3y ago
In aggregate, open source software under capitalism will always be of and in service of capitalists. All exceptions are simply that; exceptions with no potential to be anything more without a new political economic system of relations.

nabogh 3y ago

How so? GNU licensed software cannot be built on by large companies without them publishing the source code. You think they want that?

klntsky 3y ago
Yes. They also don't want competition. That's why opensource won.
xkekjrktllss 3y ago
Of course. Large companies already have business plans. They just need software to implement them, and GNU gives them exactly that for free! Who do you think uses that stuff? Your parents?

jrm4 3y ago

Ugh, this is why the word "Capitalism" is so increasingly useless. There is "commerce," a thing that, like it or not, we're probably going to be doing for some time and is overwhelmingly likely inherently neutral. Then there's something else, which is definitely bad, but needs clearer definitions.

xkekjrktllss 3y ago
Capitalism is an economic system in which capital is accumulated and reinvested for profit, and that is exactly what I'm talking about. It's a perfectly good word.

jchw 3y ago

Things that benefit everybody may sometimes disproportionately benefit some entities more than others, but that is the price of having something that's indiscriminately beneficial to everyone. On the other hand, the amount of people who get to benefit from those things is still vastly greater than something that is limited to benefiting just an exclusive group. If anything, I think the way a lot of open source software winds up playing out just makes the economy a bit more efficient. Everyone does not have to write Apache or Nginx, or pay a lot of money for it. Everyone, from Spotify to some guy named Eric, can run Nginx on a server and do interesting things with it. I'm all for fixing wealth inequality but blaming open source for it seems like a terrible mistake. Open source software certainly didn't cause the wealth inequality of our society, and it's not even clear it has yet made it much worse.

xkekjrktllss 3y ago
>Open source software certainly didn't cause the wealth inequality of our society And it certainly does nothing to change it either, but we all have to pretend otherwise because our jobs depend on us drinking the kool-aid.
- jchw 3y ago
  Personally, I don't feel a pressure to do that. It's not even really necessary, because while it may not solve all of society's problems, it's still a clear mutually beneficial relationship in the long run.
- Buxato 3y ago
  Open Source improved the world, from health, to 3d printing FFF, to learning, to start a business around it, ... and is continue giving a lot of opportunities in both education, research and business creation. But definitely it will not change inequality, but its contributions in the society are huge. Inequality will always exist, because we are not equal, not same intelligence, not same beauty, not same risk adversity, not same luck, not same environment...

dartos 3y ago

You can make that argument about literally anything. Anything is in the service of those who take advantage of it. Another fact you may find surprising: water is wet.