5 ms·

It's 2023 – why is it still so annoying to respec in singleplayer RPGs?

19 points by josephcsible 3y ago

PaulHoule 3y ago
It's one reason I play JRPGs as you get to enjoy a few characters. As a sometimes DM I hate the "character development" of D&D (players who just can't stand that things don't go that way) and that's why I like to run games like Toon which are light hearted or games that are brutal like Call of Cthulhu and Paranoia.
progne 3y ago
Disagree, constraints on respec are consequences for in game choices, which raise the stakes for each move and can greatly increase immersion. Like putting money down on a horse race. That doesn't mean that all RPGs should be perma-death, but that it's a complex artistic choice.
- paulryanrogers 3y ago
  It would be nice if there were an accessibility option or slider to adjust the cost. We don't all have the stamina or range of motion to play as many hours as we'd like, or in the way that fits us best. Understandable if indie devs cannot afford such accomodations, but for AAA it seems reasonable.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- tayo42 3y ago
  Definitely doesn't increase the immersion for me. I have spend a ton of time looking into the consequences of what ever choice I'm presented with. That happens with me pausing and searching the internet
- setr 3y ago
  The problem with most RPGs is that you end up specializing towards a certain goal, from the get-go, but it’s entirely unclear what items you’ll actually find down the road to support it, and what consequences could potentially exist. And of course unless the game is trivial difficulty-wise, you can always build yourself into a dead-end (though many rpgs are trivial to avoid this). Ultimately though you usually have two classes of player — min/maxers and role players — and it’s generally pointless to argue solely towards one side or the other; they will inevitably conflict, and the game generally must find its balance between the two
  - gnulinux 3y ago
    This is why the only way to play RPG -- in my very very humble opinion -- is via permadeath. Each death tells you a unique story as to why you optimized your character poorly.
    - setr 3y ago
      Agreed — Roguelikes, and AD&D, are the one true path towards good RPGs. The obsession with grand narratives and long-running unkillable parties corrupts the genre into all sorts of poor decisions in the name of role playing. Roleplay through play is the correct system — not through decision trees
    - jowea 3y ago
      That only sort of makes sense if the part of the game where you can die is the main one. Who would play an RPG that is 50% walking around, talking to people and appreciating the plot with permadeath, meaning you have to redo all this every time and 90% of players will never see the ending?
  - m463 3y ago
    > you end up specializing towards a certain goal, from the get-go, So, the sneaky archer? (sorry, I remember reading a snarky guide to either oblivion or skyrim, where it said everyone always ends up a sneaky archer)
  - blitzar 3y ago
- mr_toad 3y ago
  This artistic choice, combined with poorly balanced classes and overly complicated rules turns RPGs into Build Playing Games. Looking at you BG3.
- kstenerud 3y ago
  I like respecs, as do most RPG players I know. Game companies won't be getting my money if they don't provide this - I want an enjoyable experience, not a frustrating "purist" one.
nvy 3y ago
If respecs are free: You're playing a Sword & Board fighter type character, and Stealth isn't one of your class skills, so you temporarily respec into Thief, steal the MacGuffin, and then re-respec back into Fighter and continue on your merry way. You're playing a Frost mage and this dungeon is full of cold-resistant enemies. So you respec to Fire mage to do this dungeon. You're playing a low-charisma class and need to convince an NPC so you respec into Bard to pass the conversation check. Why even have classes at all at this point?
- mckirk 3y ago
  Maybe you could make it a part of the difficulty setting. I mean, sometimes you just want to roll over everything in your path and feel badass for a bit, and sometimes you want an actual challenge.
  - nvy 3y ago
    Maybe there's an indie game idea here. You play as a shape shifter type character, and the core game mechanic is morphing between tank/heal/DPS type roles to adapt to the challenge at hand.
    - pavel_lishin 3y ago
      Spoiler alert for an old RPG called "Sanitarium": https://store.steampowered.com/app/284050/Sanitarium/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/284050/Sanitarium/ It's been a very long time since I've played this, but it's one of the few games I actually played to completion. It featured this mechanic late in the game, where you could choose to become one of three "aspects" of your PC in order to overcome certain challenges. It was pretty basic, but it was a nice touch and made a lot of sense in-sotry.
- von_lohengramm 3y ago
  > Why even have classes at all at this point? Perhaps this is the actual lesson? Instead of artificial opportunity cost in the form of exclusive choices, why not provide opportunity cost in the form of time/money/etc investment? You're a Sword & Board fighter in need of stealing the MacGuffin. Instead of magically undoing the choices that got you here, you go out and practice Stealth until you're able to heist the famed MacGuffin. Admittedly, this system does actually provide less immersion, meaningful choices, etc., but IMO this can be mitigated almost completely by making skilling up much harder. If you still want to promote class/archetype-based characters, then just make your character's class reduce the amount of XP needed to level up certain skills. While you're at it, make having high skills also reduce the XP cost of similar skills. Someone who's really good with two-handed weapons will probably pick up one-handed weapons much quicker than someone who's never even touched a weapon. And if this isn't enough opportunity cost for truly meaningful choices, then limiting the availability of XP (in certain sections of the game?) is also an option.
emmo 3y ago
Friction isn't inherently negative.
tedunangst 3y ago
Just hexedit your save file if you care that much. And level up to level 99 while you're at it.
yieldcrv 3y ago
Consequences have value
bigbuppo 3y ago
Well for starters, with MMOs you are your character and you're paying to play. Every single month for fifteen years. They are part of the Great Enshittification where we own nothing and just pay rents for all eternity. Single player games generally have a start and an end. You respec on your next replay.
__MatrixMan__ 3y ago
I don't think I've ever taken an opportunity to respec. It just feels like it cheapens the experience. This is my character. This is me. We are more than a number of points. If I wanted an experience where all of my features are irrelevant and it's just net worth that matters... Well I don't need RPGs for that.
- swatcoder 3y ago
  It's handy if you know you'll only play one run and aren't satisfied with how your build plays. But in that use pattern, it doesn't need to be streamlined or made too easily availble, as the article seems to be about. It's just nice to have there if you really need it in order to squeeze some more enjoyment from the game.
- kstenerud 3y ago
  That's one way to look at it. Another is "I've had fun playing the way this spec allows. I wonder how respeccing in this particular manner will change things? Oh wow, this is SO much more me!"
mips_r4300i 3y ago
Restrictions or constraints being creativity. That's the whole fun of it. No fun in pressing F to win.
- mock-possum 3y ago
  I mean A) it’s not that simple and B) if you would, presented with a button to press to win, press it, then that’s your problem. There are those of us who would say “no thank you,” push the button aside, and continue playing ‘normally.’ Like that’s not an argument against the supposed win button being implemented, that’s an admission of your own lack of self control, you know? It’s nice to have options, with the proviso that you feel capable of making good decisions for yourself.
badlucklottery 3y ago
I think the difficulty of respeccing should be the inverse of the length of the game. If you're playing a quick roguelike where it's all over in a couple hours at most: no need for respeccing, the class constraints add replayability. If you're play a 80+ hour epic: respeccing should be easy. Making players stick with a class choice they made at minute 0 when they literally knew nothing about how the game actually plays just seems silly. Especially since most people won't actually replay the game and experience the other classes.
rphln 3y ago
Ultimately, what kinds of incentives does having no respecs leads to? I don't think I've ever really cared about immersion. I like experimenting with stuff. In a long game, having no option to undo whatever I cook up means I'd either a) have to suffer for the rest of the playthrough, b) avoid the janky stuff, or c) end up looking for build spoilers. None of which are particularly fun. Bonus points if the game doesn't really have a lot of replay value in the first place. (That being said, the only games that I played and truly felt miserable in this regard were MMOs.) If the game wants to be punishing, give it hard bosses that force me to learn how to play better regardless of my build. (Though, as mentioned downthread, if it's a short game, no problems. The game is probably designed to be played multiple times anyway.)
costanzaDynasty 3y ago
I never respec. I made the choices I made. If I want to take another path I’d rather start a new play through.
- viraptor 3y ago
  Here's the fun thing though - you can do that whether the respec mechanics exist or not. But people who don't share your preferences will only benefit from one of those paths.
yen223 3y ago
Divinity: Original Sins 2 had a magic mirror, that let you respec almost everything about your character or your companions. It didn't stop the game from being enjoyable to me.

19 points by josephcsible 3y ago

It's one reason I play JRPGs as you get to enjoy a few characters. As a sometimes DM I hate the "character development" of D&D (players who just can't stand that things don't go that way) and that's why I like to run games like Toon which are light hearted or games that are brutal like Call of Cthulhu and Paranoia.

progne 3y ago

Disagree, constraints on respec are consequences for in game choices, which raise the stakes for each move and can greatly increase immersion. Like putting money down on a horse race. That doesn't mean that all RPGs should be perma-death, but that it's a complex artistic choice.

paulryanrogers 3y ago
It would be nice if there were an accessibility option or slider to adjust the cost. We don't all have the stamina or range of motion to play as many hours as we'd like, or in the way that fits us best. Understandable if indie devs cannot afford such accomodations, but for AAA it seems reasonable.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
tayo42 3y ago
Definitely doesn't increase the immersion for me. I have spend a ton of time looking into the consequences of what ever choice I'm presented with. That happens with me pausing and searching the internet
setr 3y ago
The problem with most RPGs is that you end up specializing towards a certain goal, from the get-go, but it’s entirely unclear what items you’ll actually find down the road to support it, and what consequences could potentially exist. And of course unless the game is trivial difficulty-wise, you can always build yourself into a dead-end (though many rpgs are trivial to avoid this). Ultimately though you usually have two classes of player — min/maxers and role players — and it’s generally pointless to argue solely towards one side or the other; they will inevitably conflict, and the game generally must find its balance between the two
- gnulinux 3y ago
  This is why the only way to play RPG -- in my very very humble opinion -- is via permadeath. Each death tells you a unique story as to why you optimized your character poorly.
  - setr 3y ago
    Agreed — Roguelikes, and AD&D, are the one true path towards good RPGs. The obsession with grand narratives and long-running unkillable parties corrupts the genre into all sorts of poor decisions in the name of role playing. Roleplay through play is the correct system — not through decision trees
  - jowea 3y ago
    That only sort of makes sense if the part of the game where you can die is the main one. Who would play an RPG that is 50% walking around, talking to people and appreciating the plot with permadeath, meaning you have to redo all this every time and 90% of players will never see the ending?
- m463 3y ago
  > you end up specializing towards a certain goal, from the get-go, So, the sneaky archer? (sorry, I remember reading a snarky guide to either oblivion or skyrim, where it said everyone always ends up a sneaky archer)
- blitzar 3y ago
mr_toad 3y ago
This artistic choice, combined with poorly balanced classes and overly complicated rules turns RPGs into Build Playing Games. Looking at you BG3.
kstenerud 3y ago
I like respecs, as do most RPG players I know. Game companies won't be getting my money if they don't provide this - I want an enjoyable experience, not a frustrating "purist" one.

nvy 3y ago

If respecs are free: You're playing a Sword & Board fighter type character, and Stealth isn't one of your class skills, so you temporarily respec into Thief, steal the MacGuffin, and then re-respec back into Fighter and continue on your merry way. You're playing a Frost mage and this dungeon is full of cold-resistant enemies. So you respec to Fire mage to do this dungeon. You're playing a low-charisma class and need to convince an NPC so you respec into Bard to pass the conversation check. Why even have classes at all at this point?

mckirk 3y ago
Maybe you could make it a part of the difficulty setting. I mean, sometimes you just want to roll over everything in your path and feel badass for a bit, and sometimes you want an actual challenge.
- nvy 3y ago
  Maybe there's an indie game idea here. You play as a shape shifter type character, and the core game mechanic is morphing between tank/heal/DPS type roles to adapt to the challenge at hand.
  - pavel_lishin 3y ago
    Spoiler alert for an old RPG called "Sanitarium": https://store.steampowered.com/app/284050/Sanitarium/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/284050/Sanitarium/ It's been a very long time since I've played this, but it's one of the few games I actually played to completion. It featured this mechanic late in the game, where you could choose to become one of three "aspects" of your PC in order to overcome certain challenges. It was pretty basic, but it was a nice touch and made a lot of sense in-sotry.
von_lohengramm 3y ago
> Why even have classes at all at this point? Perhaps this is the actual lesson? Instead of artificial opportunity cost in the form of exclusive choices, why not provide opportunity cost in the form of time/money/etc investment? You're a Sword & Board fighter in need of stealing the MacGuffin. Instead of magically undoing the choices that got you here, you go out and practice Stealth until you're able to heist the famed MacGuffin. Admittedly, this system does actually provide less immersion, meaningful choices, etc., but IMO this can be mitigated almost completely by making skilling up much harder. If you still want to promote class/archetype-based characters, then just make your character's class reduce the amount of XP needed to level up certain skills. While you're at it, make having high skills also reduce the XP cost of similar skills. Someone who's really good with two-handed weapons will probably pick up one-handed weapons much quicker than someone who's never even touched a weapon. And if this isn't enough opportunity cost for truly meaningful choices, then limiting the availability of XP (in certain sections of the game?) is also an option.

emmo 3y ago

Friction isn't inherently negative.

tedunangst 3y ago

Just hexedit your save file if you care that much. And level up to level 99 while you're at it.

yieldcrv 3y ago

Consequences have value

bigbuppo 3y ago

Well for starters, with MMOs you are your character and you're paying to play. Every single month for fifteen years. They are part of the Great Enshittification where we own nothing and just pay rents for all eternity. Single player games generally have a start and an end. You respec on your next replay.

__MatrixMan__ 3y ago

I don't think I've ever taken an opportunity to respec. It just feels like it cheapens the experience. This is my character. This is me. We are more than a number of points. If I wanted an experience where all of my features are irrelevant and it's just net worth that matters... Well I don't need RPGs for that.

swatcoder 3y ago
It's handy if you know you'll only play one run and aren't satisfied with how your build plays. But in that use pattern, it doesn't need to be streamlined or made too easily availble, as the article seems to be about. It's just nice to have there if you really need it in order to squeeze some more enjoyment from the game.
kstenerud 3y ago
That's one way to look at it. Another is "I've had fun playing the way this spec allows. I wonder how respeccing in this particular manner will change things? Oh wow, this is SO much more me!"

mips_r4300i 3y ago

Restrictions or constraints being creativity. That's the whole fun of it. No fun in pressing F to win.

mock-possum 3y ago
I mean A) it’s not that simple and B) if you would, presented with a button to press to win, press it, then that’s your problem. There are those of us who would say “no thank you,” push the button aside, and continue playing ‘normally.’ Like that’s not an argument against the supposed win button being implemented, that’s an admission of your own lack of self control, you know? It’s nice to have options, with the proviso that you feel capable of making good decisions for yourself.

badlucklottery 3y ago

I think the difficulty of respeccing should be the inverse of the length of the game. If you're playing a quick roguelike where it's all over in a couple hours at most: no need for respeccing, the class constraints add replayability. If you're play a 80+ hour epic: respeccing should be easy. Making players stick with a class choice they made at minute 0 when they literally knew nothing about how the game actually plays just seems silly. Especially since most people won't actually replay the game and experience the other classes.

rphln 3y ago

Ultimately, what kinds of incentives does having no respecs leads to? I don't think I've ever really cared about immersion. I like experimenting with stuff. In a long game, having no option to undo whatever I cook up means I'd either a) have to suffer for the rest of the playthrough, b) avoid the janky stuff, or c) end up looking for build spoilers. None of which are particularly fun. Bonus points if the game doesn't really have a lot of replay value in the first place. (That being said, the only games that I played and truly felt miserable in this regard were MMOs.) If the game wants to be punishing, give it hard bosses that force me to learn how to play better regardless of my build. (Though, as mentioned downthread, if it's a short game, no problems. The game is probably designed to be played multiple times anyway.)

costanzaDynasty 3y ago

I never respec. I made the choices I made. If I want to take another path I’d rather start a new play through.

viraptor 3y ago
Here's the fun thing though - you can do that whether the respec mechanics exist or not. But people who don't share your preferences will only benefit from one of those paths.

yen223 3y ago

Divinity: Original Sins 2 had a magic mirror, that let you respec almost everything about your character or your companions. It didn't stop the game from being enjoyable to me.