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What is the enterprise virtualization alternative? Is everyone on Hyper V already? Does Citrix still exist? Are SuSE or Red Hat offering an 'open source' alte

What is the enterprise virtualization alternative? Is everyone on Hyper V already? Does Citrix still exist? Are SuSE or Red Hat offering an 'open source' alternative? Surely people aren't using Proxmox in production?

navaati 3y ago
RedHat and a couple other companies will sell you OpenStack clusters, up to a certain size.
mvdwoord 3y ago
Containers containers containers ;) In all seriousness, I think it is a hot topic in Enterprise Architecture (tm) meeting rooms ever since the merger was announced (I know it was in ours). But even if you find an alternative, you need to move, and a lot of companies have a lot of hard to modernize workloads which are skillfully managed by a lot of VMware trained personnel. No easy task.
tlamponi 3y ago
> Surely people aren't using Proxmox in production? Lot's do, e.g., the Austrian domain registry: https://www.proxmox.com/en/about/stories/story/nic-at https://www.proxmox.com/en/about/stories/story/nic-at And many others (albeit the big ones aren't listed there, a bit harder to get real testimonials from them, and we do not pester everybody): https://www.proxmox.com/en/about/stories?f=7 https://www.proxmox.com/en/about/stories?f=7
jzb 3y ago
Red Hat has/had Red Hat Virtualization but has transitioned that to Red Hat OpenShift Virtualization as a successor. I think RHV is set to phase out in 2026, and I'm not sure if they're currently selling new subs or just servicing existing customers with other folks pointed to RHOV. The oVirt community's most recent release is from last December, so I'm not sure whether that project is going to thrive now that Red Hat has largely stepped away. (Last blog update is also December 2022.)
- _jal 3y ago
  RHV is dead, they're trying to move people over to (the much more expensive) OpenShift. Support for it has gotten predictably worse. I don't expect Ovirt to survive, the vast majority of development was RH. "The market" seems to "deciding" that in-house virtualization will be insanely expensive, and otherwise you need to rent OCP.
sebazzz 3y ago
Hyper-V server is killed by Microsoft, though you can of course install Windows Server in Core mode and install the Hypervisor component.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
noinsight 3y ago
Red Hat used to offer Red Hat Virtualization (RHV) - based on oVirt - but they killed that at approximately the same time this VMware deal was announced (supposedly coincidentally). Now they bolted on virtual machines onto their OpenShift container platform and are pushing that.
tonoto 3y ago
Keep the eyes open on https://oxide.computer/ https://oxide.computer/ - they are building hyperscalar racks with open source components. Using bhyve as the hypervisor, API as a first class citizen, Terraform/Opentofu, live-migration. Can't wish for much more
- 0dayz 3y ago
  Why... bhyve, there's 0 advantages to kvm.
  - steve1977 3y ago
    Not being GPL might be one
  - tonoto 3y ago
    The question was "What is the enterprise virtualization alternative?" ..and your answer is kvm? KVM in itself is enterprise? ..or was it in context to my response referring to Oxide as an enterprise alternative? Well, in that case I can tell that there are only advantages to bhyve as the code base of kvm fork is old and all focus shifted to bhyve which build with todays hardware in mind.
  - keep_reading 3y ago
    Massive IO performance over KVM due to the emulated NVME driver. Bhyve may be juvenile compared to KVM but it seems to have a better design and a better license. https://klarasystems.com/articles/virtualization-showdown-freebsd-bhyve-linux-kvm/ https://klarasystems.com/articles/virtualization-showdown-fr... edit: also bhyve runs on SmartOS too, and I think Bryan is going to be more comfortable with a Solaris OS under the hood
    - Always_Anon 3y ago
      >Massive IO performance over KVM due to the emulated NVME driver. That is incorrect. It's faster than KVM's virtio, not faster than KVM's NVMe. They didn't bother to test KVM's NVMe virtualization[0]. To quote your source: "As it turns out, bhyve/NVMe isn’t just faster than bhyve/VirtIO—it’s faster than KVM/VirtIO as well" They're comparing apples to oranges. Why would they do that? "Meet the Author: Jim Salter" Oh, that's why. >Bhyve may be juvenile compared to KVM but it seems to have a better design Likely not, debatable. >better license. Debatable, but I get it. >also bhyve runs on SmartOS too, and I think Bryan is going to be more comfortable with a Solaris OS under the hood Most definitely why. KVM uses a lot of Linux kernel specific interfaces and functions. Bhyve is easier to port due to this. [0] https://qemu-project.gitlab.io/qemu/system/devices/nvme.html https://qemu-project.gitlab.io/qemu/system/devices/nvme.html
nullindividual 3y ago
Hyper-V isn't dead by any means, however I would have a very difficult time recommending it in a greenfield environment. Microsoft's focus is clearly not A) Windows Server and B) Hyper-V.
MrDrMcCoy 3y ago
OpenNebula is what my current employer is looking at for our next move.
remir 3y ago
XCP-NG + Xen Orchestra is a solid combo. XCP-NG is based on Xen.
totallywrong 3y ago
OpenStack was all the rage some years ago, but I rarely hear about it these days. It does seem like a mature, viable option.
- rrdharan 3y ago
  You never hear about it because it’s mostly dead. Would love to hear a counter argument or evidence otherwise but my impression is there are very few successful openstack deployments out there and mostly it just is useful to provide some negotiating leverage when talking to your VMware rep.
  - lta 3y ago
    OVH uses OpenStack to power a large a amount of it's offering afaict, and they're a pretty large provider
    - johnvanommen 3y ago
      > OVH uses OpenStack to power a large a amount of it's offering afaict, YMMV, but I think one of the main drivers of OpenStack is that it can be modified, because it's open source. IE, if you're Verizon / AT&T / T-Mobile, it's valuable to be able to modify the product to suit your needs. I did some work on an OpenStack project a couple of years ago where the client wanted to leverage some hardware that was absolutely cutting edge. Literally so new, that engineers from the hardware vendor were involved in tweaking and optimizing things. Try doing that with VMWare; it's impossible. With OpenStack, there's nothing stopping you from modding the product to suit your needs. Obviously, this works particularly well if you're running hundreds or thousands of servers and you can justify the investment. If I were only running a few dozen VMs, OpenStack is probably overkill.
  - johnvanommen 3y ago
    > You never hear about it because it’s mostly dead. > Would love to hear a counter argument or evidence otherwise but my impression is there are very few successful openstack deployments out there I've been doing OpenStack continuously for 10+ years, and it's never been more popular than today. It's bizarre how people think it's dead. The biggest difference between OpenStack in 2013 and OpenStack in 2023 is that in 2013 there were a dozen different vendors promoting it, and in 2023 it's basically Canonical and RedHat. The CEO of Canonical wrote an editorial years ago, basically arguing that the implosion that happened in 2017-ish, when Cisco/VMWare/HPE/Pistoncloud/etc threw in the towel would be good for OpenStack. And I think that was true. It's very similar to what happened to Linux, remember how there was a period where there were 20+ distros vying for supremacy?
transpute 3y ago
> Does Citrix still exist Yes, https://www.xenserver.com/ https://www.xenserver.com/ and French OSS derivative https://xcp-ng.org https://xcp-ng.org Citrix is now a private company run by former Broadcom head of software who negotiated VMware acquisition, https://www.crn.com/news/cloud/citrix-tibco-new-ceo-tom-krause-5-huge-things-to-know/2 https://www.crn.com/news/cloud/citrix-tibco-new-ceo-tom-krau...
- edwintorok 3y ago
  Xenserver is not part of Citrix anymore. It is a sibling business unit, part of its parent company Cloud Software Group. See https://cloud.com https://cloud.com and https://www.xenserver.com/story https://www.xenserver.com/story Disclaimer: I work here
merlyn 3y ago
Hyper-V as most people actually use it is more like single-host VMware ESXi. VMware's true magic is with vCenter. While Microsoft has an equivalent to that (SC VMM), nobody seems to use it because it is virtually unusable. I've never seen a successful production cluster of VMM running.
locusm 3y ago
My picks would be - Proxmox 8 if you predominately run Linux workloads - XCP-NG + XOA - XenServer

navaati 3y ago

RedHat and a couple other companies will sell you OpenStack clusters, up to a certain size.

mvdwoord 3y ago

Containers containers containers ;) In all seriousness, I think it is a hot topic in Enterprise Architecture (tm) meeting rooms ever since the merger was announced (I know it was in ours). But even if you find an alternative, you need to move, and a lot of companies have a lot of hard to modernize workloads which are skillfully managed by a lot of VMware trained personnel. No easy task.

tlamponi 3y ago

> Surely people aren't using Proxmox in production? Lot's do, e.g., the Austrian domain registry: https://www.proxmox.com/en/about/stories/story/nic-at https://www.proxmox.com/en/about/stories/story/nic-at And many others (albeit the big ones aren't listed there, a bit harder to get real testimonials from them, and we do not pester everybody): https://www.proxmox.com/en/about/stories?f=7 https://www.proxmox.com/en/about/stories?f=7

jzb 3y ago

Red Hat has/had Red Hat Virtualization but has transitioned that to Red Hat OpenShift Virtualization as a successor. I think RHV is set to phase out in 2026, and I'm not sure if they're currently selling new subs or just servicing existing customers with other folks pointed to RHOV. The oVirt community's most recent release is from last December, so I'm not sure whether that project is going to thrive now that Red Hat has largely stepped away. (Last blog update is also December 2022.)

_jal 3y ago
RHV is dead, they're trying to move people over to (the much more expensive) OpenShift. Support for it has gotten predictably worse. I don't expect Ovirt to survive, the vast majority of development was RH. "The market" seems to "deciding" that in-house virtualization will be insanely expensive, and otherwise you need to rent OCP.

sebazzz 3y ago

Hyper-V server is killed by Microsoft, though you can of course install Windows Server in Core mode and install the Hypervisor component.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

noinsight 3y ago

Red Hat used to offer Red Hat Virtualization (RHV) - based on oVirt - but they killed that at approximately the same time this VMware deal was announced (supposedly coincidentally). Now they bolted on virtual machines onto their OpenShift container platform and are pushing that.

tonoto 3y ago

Keep the eyes open on https://oxide.computer/ https://oxide.computer/ - they are building hyperscalar racks with open source components. Using bhyve as the hypervisor, API as a first class citizen, Terraform/Opentofu, live-migration. Can't wish for much more

0dayz 3y ago
Why... bhyve, there's 0 advantages to kvm.
- steve1977 3y ago
  Not being GPL might be one
- tonoto 3y ago
  The question was "What is the enterprise virtualization alternative?" ..and your answer is kvm? KVM in itself is enterprise? ..or was it in context to my response referring to Oxide as an enterprise alternative? Well, in that case I can tell that there are only advantages to bhyve as the code base of kvm fork is old and all focus shifted to bhyve which build with todays hardware in mind.
- keep_reading 3y ago
  Massive IO performance over KVM due to the emulated NVME driver. Bhyve may be juvenile compared to KVM but it seems to have a better design and a better license. https://klarasystems.com/articles/virtualization-showdown-freebsd-bhyve-linux-kvm/ https://klarasystems.com/articles/virtualization-showdown-fr... edit: also bhyve runs on SmartOS too, and I think Bryan is going to be more comfortable with a Solaris OS under the hood
  - Always_Anon 3y ago
    >Massive IO performance over KVM due to the emulated NVME driver. That is incorrect. It's faster than KVM's virtio, not faster than KVM's NVMe. They didn't bother to test KVM's NVMe virtualization[0]. To quote your source: "As it turns out, bhyve/NVMe isn’t just faster than bhyve/VirtIO—it’s faster than KVM/VirtIO as well" They're comparing apples to oranges. Why would they do that? "Meet the Author: Jim Salter" Oh, that's why. >Bhyve may be juvenile compared to KVM but it seems to have a better design Likely not, debatable. >better license. Debatable, but I get it. >also bhyve runs on SmartOS too, and I think Bryan is going to be more comfortable with a Solaris OS under the hood Most definitely why. KVM uses a lot of Linux kernel specific interfaces and functions. Bhyve is easier to port due to this. [0] https://qemu-project.gitlab.io/qemu/system/devices/nvme.html https://qemu-project.gitlab.io/qemu/system/devices/nvme.html

nullindividual 3y ago

Hyper-V isn't dead by any means, however I would have a very difficult time recommending it in a greenfield environment. Microsoft's focus is clearly not A) Windows Server and B) Hyper-V.

MrDrMcCoy 3y ago

OpenNebula is what my current employer is looking at for our next move.

remir 3y ago

XCP-NG + Xen Orchestra is a solid combo. XCP-NG is based on Xen.

totallywrong 3y ago

OpenStack was all the rage some years ago, but I rarely hear about it these days. It does seem like a mature, viable option.

rrdharan 3y ago
You never hear about it because it’s mostly dead. Would love to hear a counter argument or evidence otherwise but my impression is there are very few successful openstack deployments out there and mostly it just is useful to provide some negotiating leverage when talking to your VMware rep.
- lta 3y ago
  OVH uses OpenStack to power a large a amount of it's offering afaict, and they're a pretty large provider
  - johnvanommen 3y ago
    > OVH uses OpenStack to power a large a amount of it's offering afaict, YMMV, but I think one of the main drivers of OpenStack is that it can be modified, because it's open source. IE, if you're Verizon / AT&T / T-Mobile, it's valuable to be able to modify the product to suit your needs. I did some work on an OpenStack project a couple of years ago where the client wanted to leverage some hardware that was absolutely cutting edge. Literally so new, that engineers from the hardware vendor were involved in tweaking and optimizing things. Try doing that with VMWare; it's impossible. With OpenStack, there's nothing stopping you from modding the product to suit your needs. Obviously, this works particularly well if you're running hundreds or thousands of servers and you can justify the investment. If I were only running a few dozen VMs, OpenStack is probably overkill.
- johnvanommen 3y ago
  > You never hear about it because it’s mostly dead. > Would love to hear a counter argument or evidence otherwise but my impression is there are very few successful openstack deployments out there I've been doing OpenStack continuously for 10+ years, and it's never been more popular than today. It's bizarre how people think it's dead. The biggest difference between OpenStack in 2013 and OpenStack in 2023 is that in 2013 there were a dozen different vendors promoting it, and in 2023 it's basically Canonical and RedHat. The CEO of Canonical wrote an editorial years ago, basically arguing that the implosion that happened in 2017-ish, when Cisco/VMWare/HPE/Pistoncloud/etc threw in the towel would be good for OpenStack. And I think that was true. It's very similar to what happened to Linux, remember how there was a period where there were 20+ distros vying for supremacy?

transpute 3y ago

> Does Citrix still exist Yes, https://www.xenserver.com/ https://www.xenserver.com/ and French OSS derivative https://xcp-ng.org https://xcp-ng.org Citrix is now a private company run by former Broadcom head of software who negotiated VMware acquisition, https://www.crn.com/news/cloud/citrix-tibco-new-ceo-tom-krause-5-huge-things-to-know/2 https://www.crn.com/news/cloud/citrix-tibco-new-ceo-tom-krau...

edwintorok 3y ago
Xenserver is not part of Citrix anymore. It is a sibling business unit, part of its parent company Cloud Software Group. See https://cloud.com https://cloud.com and https://www.xenserver.com/story https://www.xenserver.com/story Disclaimer: I work here

merlyn 3y ago

Hyper-V as most people actually use it is more like single-host VMware ESXi. VMware's true magic is with vCenter. While Microsoft has an equivalent to that (SC VMM), nobody seems to use it because it is virtually unusable. I've never seen a successful production cluster of VMM running.

locusm 3y ago

My picks would be - Proxmox 8 if you predominately run Linux workloads - XCP-NG + XOA - XenServer