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Ask HN: I've spent $1M+ building a fitness app. Now what?

19 points by ptwobrussell 3y ago

# I've spent $1mm+ building a fitness app. Now what? ## Situation Report: - I've been bootstrapping a consumer-grade (native iOS + Apple Watch) fitness app for the past few years, and I've spent over $1mm (not including my own time; that's real post-tax cash money) getting to this point. - I'm a solo founder with a ~20 year professional background in building + shipping enterprise software products, and the vast majority of my focus has been on building the app itself (with the help of a lean team of contractors and freelancers.) - The app itself is fairly polished and perfectly usable. It's in the App Store right now, I use it daily, and there's a small trickle of users. However, there's no clear signs of PMF or traction yet -- and that's essentially the problem to be solved. - If time and money were no object, I would love to continue working on this app indefinitely. I'm obsessed with human performance + fitness, and building this kind of product is fun. I believe in the longer-term potential to turn this into a viable business, though I don't have a line of sight to that yet. (And at the same time, I'm just getting a little exhausted trying to do so much for so long with so little support!) - Practically speaking, I can't keep putting time + money into this forever, I don't think I can/should try to raise outside capital until I can show some clear traction with what I've already built -- and I'm increasingly starting to second guess myself and wonder if my current strategy for launching and monetizing a B2C app as a solo founder might just be a fool's errand. So, I'm thinking about how to honestly assess the situation and determine what's the next best step for finding PMF... ## Considerations Some of things I'm considering (which are not mutually exclusive) - Start trying to recruit a co-founder with a penchant for fitness + legit passion for marketing to help find traction + go to the next level - Go into code freeze (e.g. taper expenses to the lowest possible level), take a holiday break to freshen my perspective, and (at least temporarily) reframe this as a side-hustle in the new year with most of that energy going into marketing - Start building a pipeline of potential acquirers who might be interested in picking up from where I'm at and frame an offer around the source code + registered trademarks. (e.g. increase my luck of getting acquired or acqui-hired) In general, I'm leaning towards a strategy where I freeze the product for a while and put 99% of the time + money + energy into marketing for purposes of finding PMF. (I don't think trying to raise outside capital right now makes sense given market conditions or the lack of demonstrated traction, but that might be a limiting belief?) ## Ask HN Anything else you'd add to the list of possibilities, or any strategic advice you'd offer from prior experience?

howon92 3y ago
> In general, I'm leaning towards a strategy where I freeze the product for a while and put 99% of the time + money + energy into marketing for purposes of finding PMF. Have you looked into cohort retention of your users? If your users continue using your app, then I'd say keep going. Otherwise, there's no point in spending effort in marketing IMO.
- ptwobrussell 3y ago
  Good thought! I haven't been rigorous about this yet, and that sounds like a tactical + practical next step. Anecdotally, I think I am currently churning most of the users. Do you have any thoughts on how many users would be a minimum threshold for a legit cohort analysis?
tikkun 3y ago
What's your financial standing? Are you doing this for fun and you already have enough assets to live on, or does this need to work financially? If it needs to work, I think pausing development and focusing only on marketing, as you say, seems like a good path. And I'd try and do "high fidelity" marketing rather than low fidelity - e.g. approach people in person at the cafe at a gym or after their workout, rather than sending ads or emails into the void where you don't know what lands. I'll note that it's kind of wild to have invested $1mm without a seemingly clear plan for distribution, but, it seems that you're taking steps to address that now at least.
- ptwobrussell 3y ago
  Financially, I don't need the app to produce income to keep my life on track...but the opportunity cost of continuing to sink so much time + life force into it is substantial (even in comparison to sunk costs), and that's one of the factors I'm increasingly thinking about. I really like the idea of doubling down on getting high-quality interactive 1:1 feedback like you suggested, and that is something I can easily do on a daily basis to build more signal about how to dial in PMF in an intentional way. I heard a quote once (Justin Kan, I think) that went something like this: first time founders focus on product; second time founders focus on distribution. I might just be the extreme version of that quote ;)

aristofun 3y ago

All busieness and marketing advice aside, let me tell you the brutal truth from an average iPhone user, poor gym enthisiast and former b2c product manager perspective. Your app looks like a weak vitamin, not a pain killer. Looking at website, appstore screenshots and descriptions I got a relatively vague, generic and weak message "train smarter". - What's in it for me? - What exactly would I gain by wasting my time, focus and money on yet another AI gimmick? - Who is this app made for exactly (professional athletes, lazy bums like me, weight loss enthusiasts, amateur bodybuilders, powerlifters, those dreaming of winning iron man...)? I don't read any good and specific answers on these questions (even if I for a moment forget that 99% of amateur training success is just about consistency not "smartness") and don't want to even bother installing the app. This is what b2c PMF is about - about the fit (the click) in user's head.

ptwobrussell 3y ago
This is 100% valid feedback, and I appreciate that you took the time to share it. I'm at that point, where I need some "brutal truth" to help me navigate the next few steps... I definitely need to update the language on the site to be a lot more precise and clear about these questions you've raised. > This is what b2c PMF is about - about the fit (the click) in user's head. That's a great takeaway nugget: gotta make it "click" in the user's head that this is built just for them.
cloudking 3y ago
What is the link?
- ptwobrussell 3y ago
  https://strongest.app https://strongest.app
  - rawgabbit 3y ago
    As non athlete with dubious fitness, the website does not speak to me. Like most sedentary Americans, I want to get fit but I have no fitness goals because I have no idea what to do. The marketing seems to assume your customer are knowledgeable athletes who want an app to track their performance. I would introduce two more user personas. The first is the type whose New Year resolution is either to lose weight or build stamina. Your app should suggest a program like a personal fitness trainer, show them what to do, and track their progress and give them encouragement when they achieve some milestone. The second user has a specific goal but need help coming up with a realistic training plan For example, they want to pass the new Army fitness standards. https://armypubs.army.mil/pub/eforms/DR_a/ARN35762-DA_FORM_705-TEST-003-EFILE-4.pdf https://armypubs.army.mil/pub/eforms/DR_a/ARN35762-DA_FORM_7...
    - ptwobrussell 3y ago
      Great thoughts here! I think you're right. You wouldn't know it from the website (working on that!), but the app experience is more for "fit people who want to optimize their fitness and like to analyze their training data". It's just been a tough nut to crack to find the right way to express that so far, but to the point of this thread and all of this dialogue, that's also key to the unlock. I'm a former military guy myself, and I've been thinking about cloning + rebranding a version of the app that's super specific to "Training for military fitness tests". The more I think about that, the more I think there really might be something there.
      - drakonka 3y ago
        I'm just a coder who lifts and _not_ a marketing or ideation genius, but at first read that sounds like a really good idea. Reasoning: It _seems_ like if you make the programs legitimately useful and look reputable, not only would you get the people looking to pass a test in the actual military (which may be relatively few? I have no idea), but I bet you'd _also_ attract a ton of CrossFit or other fitness buffs who just want that "authentic" functional training feel: "Look at me according to this app used by legit military trainees I'm so fit I can be in the MilitaryBranchX!"
        ptwobrussell 3y ago
        Definitely makes sense to me, too! There' a clear customer profile, it solves a specific problem, and I could reach this audience with an offering with relatively little time + expense. I also think you're right that a lot of amateur fitness enthusiasts like to train with/to "mil specs" because of the connotations of badassery it portrays. Can't blame them... :)
drakonka 3y ago
I had a similar impression. It looks very polished and smooth, but also a little overwhelming and "too much". _But_ my first thought was that I just am not the target audience because after years of amateur lifting I've realized all I really want is a rep/set/weight tracker, and this does not strive to be that. For me, anything more complex that tries to tie different parts of the fitness "experience" into one product ends up being a distraction. It takes focus from the thing that really matters to me: the lifting part. This seems like maybe a better app for beginners who just want to try different things with more guidance on the program and movements.
- ptwobrussell 3y ago
  Great feedback! A lot of the core UI/UX has been built around training to hit specific targets/splits for metabolic conditioning workouts, analyze those splits, etc. In other words, a _really_ fancy stopwatch that can do some analysis. The app also supports weightlifting, endurance, and a broad interpretation of "constantly varied, high intensity, functional movement", but there's plenty to do there to improve the experience. I've been thinking about the idea of making the scope of the UI/UX more narrow and focused on certain types of workouts, and I still am thinking about it. It's something I might try in the weeks ahead to see if "less = more" for a more focused ideal customer profile. There's a good case to be made that the app is trying to do too many things for too many people right now : /

omarfarooq 3y ago

What is the break down of how that $1M was spent? No offense intended to you, but I'd have quoted $50K for the build out of the iOS app and the Watch companion app. Curious how you spent that money?

ptwobrussell 3y ago
Over the course of a few years, I've easily spent more than $500k on the iOS + watchOS engineering alone. (Keep in mind that I started from a clean slate, there have been multiple iterations of UI/UX evolution, lots of iOS and 3rd party integrations to implement and troubleshoot, etc. (More on that below.) To round out the figures, let's ballpark another $300-$350k on server + platform engineering, $80k on media + data + content acquisition, and then the inescapable overhead of the business itself (accounting, legal, etc.) Contract rates I'm used to paying for solid iOS engineers have been anywhere in the range of $80-$120 per hour (big discrepancy based on where they're based and whether or not I'm working direct or through an agency), so $50k would have bought me about 10 weeks of sustained effort on the high end of that range. That's probably about where I was at when we finished the first working proof of concept with a designer + iOS developer. Since then, for better or for worse, I can confidently say that I've spent more than another $50k just on "iOS debugging time". Probably more. Lots of things to build out just in iOS land itself that can be more time consuming than they first seem for anyone who is interested: - HealthKit integration - Location Services integration - WorkoutKit integration - WatchKit integration and implementing your own bidirectional comms between iOS and watchOS - Multiple AWS integrations (namely, Cognito and S3 but there are various Lambdas gluing things together and many, many more bits and pieces like CloudFront, Route53, etc.) - Custom in-app camera (and large file off loading to the cloud) - APNs - async I/O to/from our own server APIs And more, those are just the easy ones to remember :) It's been one hell of an adventure in iOS engineering land to say the least, and we haven't even begun to talk about things on the server side like data modeling. There's some really interesting stuff there as well, but that's for another thread ;)
- omarfarooq 3y ago
  I appreciate the depthful reply. My quote was based on a cursory glance, I'm sure there is much more involved with a detailed spec sheet, as you pointed out. Seems like you have the product figured out and just need to focus iterating on marketing. I'm actually in a similar position to you but having spent $400K instead of $1M. I'd like to ask you, what were some factors that propelled you to self rationalize your method of going to market, that in hindsight turned out to be detrimental? Or in other words, what would you do if you were to go back in time and start over? Look, I know that's a painful question to answer since we can't turn back time, but I am asking it for the sake of educating others and for the potential benefits that stem from self reflection. Appreciate your opening up on this. Thank you.
  - ptwobrussell 3y ago
    It's all good, and I'm genuinely enjoying these interactions here on HN. Literally nothing to lose and everything to gain from the dialogue, and I do help it's of some benefit to others :) Part of how I have rationalized my journey so far is that I have been building an app that I myself use almost every day, I genuinely enjoy the building products and working with my team, progress has been steady along the way, and I have unwittingly over-indexed on my own judgments as an "efficient proxy to the market". I know that might sound crazy, but it's a bit like, "We're making progress, but it's not quite ready, so let's just keep building. I know this is good! We got this!" In terms of more specific reflections and lessons learned so far, here are a few initial thoughts if I could start over again, knowing what I know now: - Co-Founder: I would not do this over again without a co-founder with passion and expertise in for B2C product marketing. (Even to this day, I've never really had good access to someone who has successfully bootstrapped and monetized a non-trivial digital product app from scratch.) In addition to the moral support and general collaboration, this skill set would be complementary to my own. It would had the potential to be a great counterbalance in the overall approach to GTM and product strategy. - Financial Accountability: I'd create some semi-formal accountability structures with "gating functions" for how/when funds could be spent on the product along the way. Conceptually, before taking on another 3-6 months of committed product work, make more aggressive contact with reality through user interviews. Much of the product evolution has been pretty fluid, organic, and linear based on small inputs along the way. - Proxy Users: I'd recruit a small group of users (compensating them a small stipend if needed) just to stay active on the app (e.g. you're going to be working out anyway, so do it with the app a couple of times a week) and provide regular feedback about what they see that they like and don't like, what's confusing, frustrating, etc. Probably too much of the UI/UX has been dialed in from my own experiences, and there are some interactions that can be reframed to be more obviously valuable based on the input of others - Likelihood of Success: I'd question whether the scope/complexity of what I set out to do as a solo founder with limited funds can really be achieved. For example, how likely is it that I as a solo founder can bootstrap a B2C consumer-grade iPhone + Apple Watch to profitability? And in what is considered by many a "crowded space". (It wouldn't be wrong IMHO to characterize a certain district of the app store as a 'wasteland of fitness apps'.) Should I be trying to bootstrap something this complex in this space at all? Or decrease the scope? Or consider a different financing approach? - Resist Perfectionism: It might not be obvious, but keep in mind that I've been thinking about GTM a LOT. I just haven't been doing GTM to the extent that it now seems obvious I should have been. I have somehow been rationalizing that I just need to "build more" to get the product "more ready" before I start leaning into a space and set of activities I don't particularly enjoy and am somewhat uncomfortable with. (And instead, I've been continuing to do the things I am good at and comfortable with.) - Less Isolation: And even as I itemize all of these things, I can't look back and think of any specific moments were I ever thought I was making an egregious mistake on any given day. Every day, I made what seemed like reasonable/good decisions with the best information I had at the time. Being less isolated and more integrated into a community of practice to share progress might have made a difference Probably lots of other things I could say (and let's not forget there are lots of other draws on my time in life with family, etc.), but those are some initial thoughts that I can share. If anyone bothered to read all of this, I hope it's of some help!

shp0ngle 3y ago

This seems like app for CrossFit that cannot legally use the name "CrossFit". I like it, I used to do CrossFit but now all gyms are too far for me (and too expensive). Do I _need_ apple watch though? I have just an iPhone. edit: although most people that are into CrossFit will just go to a CrossFit gym... edit2: and thinking about it more, I am not sure what will other "normal" gym people think when I do the AMRAP thing and jump around gym. Hm.

ptwobrussell 3y ago
Yup :) The original inspiration for the app was when I was looking around the gym during one of the The Opens and listening to people 'strategize' about the workout. "Don't come out of the gate too hot", "Pace yourself", "Hit this many rounds/reps by this point on the clock", etc. In other words, everyone was building a personalized "pacing plan", and it occurred to me that optimizing a plan to achieve a goal and delivering it through a digital experience was an idea I wanted to explore. I've been a life long fitness junkie, and I really think that Greg Glassman's original blueprint for "quantifying fitness" as outlined in the CF-L1 Training Manual pretty much nails a winning formula for a lot of people. (e.g. the ones who are inclined to work out.) The vast majority of the app experience itself (as well as a lot of the internal data architecture + software design that you'd never see or necessarily think about) is very much built around the idea of "workout prescriptions", "workout plans", "workout performances" and the "algebra" on those data structures that starts to quantify all of the splits. You only need an iPhone to use the app, but the overall UX is a lot better (especially during a metcon) if you have a watch because you can just advance through the workout and track your splits with a tap on the wrist. IOW: start the workout on the phone, set the phone down, train, pick the phone back up later to get all of the analysis This post and a lot of this dialogue has been TREMENDOUSLY helpful to me (both directionally and energetically) as I seek out a way to create a more focused experience in the app with a much more focused value prop (both in the app itself and in the marketing messages.) Would very much welcome your (unvarnished) feedback if you decide to check it out and have any thoughts!
ptwobrussell 3y ago
> although most people that are into CrossFit will just go to a CrossFit gym... Yes, this is seems to be the case for the most part, though I'm still exploring the "garage gym athlete" community. Turns out there are lots of garage gyms and a decent number of garage gyms have been outfitted by people who prefer/need to train at home, "ex-CrossFitters", etc. I think there's something here, but I don't have it fully quantified yet. > edit2: and thinking about it more, I am not sure what will other "normal" gym people think when I do the AMRAP thing and jump around gym. Hm. Haha. Been there myself. I find that it's important to build a small station with everything at arms reach in a "normal gym" setting so that it doesn't get taken by others. In either scenario, though, you will be an outlier...but that's not a bad thing :)

altdataseller 3y ago

As someone who spent close to $100k of his own money building a diet/fitness app that had to shutdown, I think I can add some constructive feedback. The comments on the product being a vitamin and not differentiating enough are all correct. The messaging is vague as well. Here’s the thing about the fitness industry: it’s incredibly saturated and fickle. There might not even be a way to differentiate yourself in this space. After all, it’s one of the most popular niches that entrepreneurs try to tackle. In addition, even if you find a good niche, it’s hard to keep those users, because people are just lazy by nature. So you’re always going to be facing the challenge of getting new users every single day to replace the ones that left. There has not been many successful fitness startups recently. The one that got their marketing incredibly right years ago was Fitocracy, which built a community of millions of users. Yet even they inevitably failed and sold for peanuts to a PE firm. As for my startup, I literally spent 1/2 of my time marketing before I even had a product. I built a list of 5000 users and emailed them when I launched. I actually had lots of buzz and signups in the first few weeks but it all died up because the churn is so bad in fitness. And it was hard to get writers/media to write about my startup because the concept wasn’t as new as it was in the beginning. So there you have it. If a startup like Fitocracy got their product ANd marketing down pat and still “failed” (Dick, Wang, Cockem, correct me if I’m wrong and yes those are the actual last names of the team lol) what does that mean for you? Just some inconvenient truths. I wish I could be more optimistic. If you want to learn more about my startup and what I did to market it, email me at ritagrohowski at geeeeeeeemail :)

ptwobrussell 3y ago
This is awesome feedback, and it's intuitively aligned to what I now know to be true about this space. (Alas...) So many great points in here that I can't respond back in appreciation to all of them, but this one in particular is something that I articulated to a friend just last week: > There has not been many successful fitness startups recently Seems like there's a lot to learn and reflect on there! I very much came at all of this from the product side of things (with gusto and confidence!), and it's only recently (perhaps far too late), that I am truly appreciating just how important the market is in business. (Sounds sooooo obvious in retrospect to say that, I know!) I remember a phrase I heard a while back to startup tech founders that said something to the effect of "be sure you are working in fast moving water", which just makes so much sense... And then there's Buffet + Munger's bias for betting on the market (vs founder)... To say the last, I've at least scratched the surface of appreciating the power of the market in startups + PMF.