3 ms·

Absolutely wild to me that you need to buy access to a digital PDF of a spec for a programming language in 2023.

krylon 3y ago
It's kind of the default for ISO standards, not just for programming languages. Ada is - to my knowledge - the exception, the standard document and the rationale are available free of charge. However, the draft documents are usually available for free, and the difference between the final draft and the official standard is usually miniscule (typos, punctuation errors, and so forth). You can probably find it on the working group's web site.
- trws 3y ago
  Yup, this. The final version the committee actually works on is free for C, C++ and Fortran. After that ISO has it. I’m honestly not sure I would trust the final as much as the final draft. You can also build the c++ spec from the latex for yourself, the repo is public.
- jt2190 3y ago
  https://wg5-fortran.org/f2023.html https://wg5-fortran.org/f2023.html
  - krylon 3y ago
    Thank you very much!
- peppermint_gum 3y ago
  > However, the draft documents are usually available for free Unfortunately, not for SQL :(
- creer 3y ago
  It's the default but are these orgs really getting significant funding from that kind of end-user hostile behavior? (And some drafts are available and sufficient but not in all fields)
  - krylon 3y ago
    I don't know a lot about standards organisations. But the people who actually create the standards are not getting paid by ISO. So I don't know what expenses ISO has to cover other than the cost of publishing the standard itself, which in digital form should be very low. In a corporate setting it might not be as big an issue, but as a private citizen who wants to read a standard document for educational purposes, paying upward of 100 bucks is fairly expensive, so this makes me a bit grumpy. I completely agree with your sentiment.
pklausler 3y ago
The pdf of the final draft is available for free.
- vkaku 3y ago
  This is close enough: https://j3-fortran.org/doc/year/23/23-007r1.pdf https://j3-fortran.org/doc/year/23/23-007r1.pdf
jonp888 3y ago
That's how the ISO works. C++ is no different. I guess the theory is that only compiler developers need a copy of the standard. Everyone else should rely on their compiler manual
- cyanydeez 3y ago
  infrastructure is a non-zero cost _and_ knowing that it's "authentic" is non-zero cost also.
- tialaramex 3y ago
  Nobody needs or cares about the "real" document. It's a MacGuffin at this point. STL (Microsoft's ironically named STL guy) pointed out in a thread about whether there's a difference between the ISO document and the draft that even Microsoft's compiler devs just use the draft.
  - IAmLiterallyAB 3y ago
    Do you have a link to that thread?
    - tialaramex 3y ago
      https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/17z6co2/if_you_have_a_copy_of_the_actual_nondraft_c20/ https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/17z6co2/if_you_have_a_...

It's kind of the default for ISO standards, not just for programming languages. Ada is - to my knowledge - the exception, the standard document and the rationale are available free of charge. However, the draft documents are usually available for free, and the difference between the final draft and the official standard is usually miniscule (typos, punctuation errors, and so forth). You can probably find it on the working group's web site.

trws 3y ago
Yup, this. The final version the committee actually works on is free for C, C++ and Fortran. After that ISO has it. I’m honestly not sure I would trust the final as much as the final draft. You can also build the c++ spec from the latex for yourself, the repo is public.
jt2190 3y ago
https://wg5-fortran.org/f2023.html https://wg5-fortran.org/f2023.html
- krylon 3y ago
  Thank you very much!
peppermint_gum 3y ago
> However, the draft documents are usually available for free Unfortunately, not for SQL :(
creer 3y ago
It's the default but are these orgs really getting significant funding from that kind of end-user hostile behavior? (And some drafts are available and sufficient but not in all fields)
- krylon 3y ago
  I don't know a lot about standards organisations. But the people who actually create the standards are not getting paid by ISO. So I don't know what expenses ISO has to cover other than the cost of publishing the standard itself, which in digital form should be very low. In a corporate setting it might not be as big an issue, but as a private citizen who wants to read a standard document for educational purposes, paying upward of 100 bucks is fairly expensive, so this makes me a bit grumpy. I completely agree with your sentiment.

pklausler 3y ago

The pdf of the final draft is available for free.

vkaku 3y ago
This is close enough: https://j3-fortran.org/doc/year/23/23-007r1.pdf https://j3-fortran.org/doc/year/23/23-007r1.pdf

jonp888 3y ago

That's how the ISO works. C++ is no different. I guess the theory is that only compiler developers need a copy of the standard. Everyone else should rely on their compiler manual

cyanydeez 3y ago
infrastructure is a non-zero cost _and_ knowing that it's "authentic" is non-zero cost also.
tialaramex 3y ago
Nobody needs or cares about the "real" document. It's a MacGuffin at this point. STL (Microsoft's ironically named STL guy) pointed out in a thread about whether there's a difference between the ISO document and the draft that even Microsoft's compiler devs just use the draft.
- IAmLiterallyAB 3y ago
  Do you have a link to that thread?
  - tialaramex 3y ago
    https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/17z6co2/if_you_have_a_copy_of_the_actual_nondraft_c20/ https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/17z6co2/if_you_have_a_...