4 ms·

India did the exact same thing in Canada not long ago. Brazen and not that great of an idea.

by jprd 3y ago

dmix 3y ago
They seemed to have called Canada’s poker hand successfully knowing no one takes Canada’s leadership seriously anymore. Probably the most unserious leadership you’d want in a global conflict requiring being tough and assertive. Unlike US<>Canada the Sikh killing was predated by a long series of bad looks by Canada re: India. They knew the deal. Canada hasn’t even risked releasing any evidence months later. The issue seems DOA.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > seemed to have called Canada’s poker hand…issue seems DOA The investigation is progressing at a normal pace. It’s incorrect to suggest it’s DOA. It also had a multibillion-dollar impact on multiple Indian investments, so to suggest it had no consequences is also wrong. (On a fundamental level, the killings Streisand effected the Khalistan cause. I’m of Indian descent and had not heard of Operation Blue Star [1].) > Canada hasn’t even risked releasing any evidence If the intel was American SIGINT, Ottawa wouldn’t have the authority to unilaterally release it. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star
  - dmix 3y ago
    > the intel was American SIGINT, Ottawa wouldn’t have the authority to unilaterally release it. They havent released any details of how they knew, we learned it was US from journalism. If they violated our sovereignty we have a right to know the details. The Indian gov can figure out they were wiretapped already. If ever there was grounds for releasing sensitive Intel this was it. When the Saudis killed that journalist it was revealed that Turkey had microphones inside their embassy. This is not some huge deal to reveal espionage of other agencies when the stakes are so high. I’m not sure what sort of evidence you think they’ll suddenly discover 6 months later which justifies not explaining the details which cause them to make the accusation in the first place. I don’t get how they can’t tell the public what the Indian gov specifically did but it was worth imposing the consequences of making the accusations public?
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > we have a right to know the details We do. But not immediately. > Indian gov can figure out they were wiretapped already But not how. Given how shadily they’re behaving, I wouldn’t want to declassify sources and methods too hastily either. If the rewards from keeping those methods live outweigh the gains from disclosure, that’s a valid foreign policy call. > but it was worth imposing the consequences of making the accusations public From all accounts, it going public was an accident. Ottawa was forced by the media getting a whiff of it. Washington made grunts and groans when necessary.
  - shri_krishna 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Same as for the Israel-Gaza war, or any conflict whatsoever, one bad deed do not justify other bad deeds.
      - shri_krishna 3y ago
        Are you kidding me? Operation Blue Star was to liberate the Holy Temple of the Sikhs from the hands of a few Terroists who had seized it for 2 long years. All sorts of peaceful negotiations to get them out failed. They even shot and killed a Police man who had gone to the Temple for his daily prayers in the Temple itself. The liberation of the Golden Temple and handing it back to the Sikhs is not a "bad deed". It is a "good deed". If you don't understand the issue better not to comment on it. It has nothing to do with Israel-Gaza War and is not at all like it. Khalistani Terrorism is a fringe extremist movement that never took off in India. All the Terrorists who supported it ran to Canada, UK and US and sought refuge there. Don't forget that there are 26 million Sikhs in the World, with 20 million living in India and that too in one State of Punjab alone. The Khalistanis who live in the West hardly account for even 100,000 in total. They cannot and will never speak on behalf of the entire Sikh community. They just don't have the numbers. If the West wants to break relations with India by supporting this Terror group then it can do so. But we won't let our sovereignty and territorial integrity be threatened by a group we consider equivalent to Al Qaeda/Taliban. This group has been instrumental in bombing of Air India Flight 182 in which 268 Canadian Citizens were killed. India had asked for extradition of the Terrorist who carried out the bombing 40 years ago before the bombing even took place. The Prime Minister of Canada then (Trudeau's father) denied the extradition. And because he denied the extradition, the Terrorist was able to plot the attack and carry out the deadliest Terror attack in Canadian history. Learn your history before it is too late!
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > The liberation of the Golden Temple and handing it back to the Sikhs is not a "bad deed". It is a "good deed" I guess I understand why they’re pissed off now. > West wants to break relations with India by supporting this Terror group False dichotomy. You don’t conduct extrajudicial killings on American soil, full stop. If you do, you’re an enemy. This is a line even the Soviets respected. (And if you attempt it, don’t do it so stupidly you get caught. Twice.) Consider the political repercussions of America offing an Indian right now. Of course it would kill coöperation. No matter how much it made sense. It would be difficult to imagine the contrition it would take to heal that wound. And currently, there is zero contrition coming from New Delhi. > Learn your history before it is too late It’s never too late. And there are tens of thousands of frozen conflicts worldwide. The only reason this one is relevant is because New Delhi made the Khalistani cause international news.
- llm_nerd 3y ago
  This is such a partisan take: It's okay to not like the Trudeau government, but to distort your worldview based upon it is not productive. What "evidence" you think Canada must release to satisfy your zeal? Canada isn't appealing to some world hot take court for justice. And I have no idea what Canada's purported "poker hand" was. The government revealed an incident when the media discovered it and it continues at its normal pace behind the scenes. India had an apocalyptic, absurdly over the top fit and Canada yawned. India has literally zero sway over Canada so it was all rather ridiculous. And this US revelation clearly springs from exactly the same well (via exactly the same intelligence sharing). I mean, when the Canada revelation happened the US leaked that they were investigating something and has repeatedly announced their concern about this. If anything the outsized Indian reaction to Canada was precisely because they thought they could preempt this from the US.
  - twisteriffic 3y ago
    > This is such a partisan take: It's okay to not like the Trudeau government, but to distort your worldview based upon it is not productive. Thank you for saying this. It's nice to know there are still reasonable people here.
  - dmix 3y ago
    Oh come on India bullied Canada and got away with it. Maybe there is some “justice” coming but all that’s happened is Canada showed it was too scared to take any risk at all, had a soft as hell muted response by a leader who clearly isn’t respected enough to be taken seriously to sell consequences. His behaviour before this incident set this up for failure too, it’s a long built up pattern where Canada is losing its position as a diplomatic power player and this just shows our leadership as a global moral authority is basically been nullified. This is diplomatic and precedent setting as much as it’s a pursuit of some specific criminal justice. Obsessing about not disrupting the the economic/diplomatic/immigration status quo, not offending anybody even when they seriously violate your sovereignty, and just generally playing nice guy is not how you deal with this sort of situation.
    - stefan_ 3y ago

India did the exact same thing in Canada not long ago. Brazen and not that great of an idea.

by jprd 3y ago

India did the exact same thing in Canada not long ago. Brazen and not that great of an idea.

dmix 3y ago

They seemed to have called Canada’s poker hand successfully knowing no one takes Canada’s leadership seriously anymore. Probably the most unserious leadership you’d want in a global conflict requiring being tough and assertive. Unlike US<>Canada the Sikh killing was predated by a long series of bad looks by Canada re: India. They knew the deal. Canada hasn’t even risked releasing any evidence months later. The issue seems DOA.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> seemed to have called Canada’s poker hand…issue seems DOA The investigation is progressing at a normal pace. It’s incorrect to suggest it’s DOA. It also had a multibillion-dollar impact on multiple Indian investments, so to suggest it had no consequences is also wrong. (On a fundamental level, the killings Streisand effected the Khalistan cause. I’m of Indian descent and had not heard of Operation Blue Star [1].) > Canada hasn’t even risked releasing any evidence If the intel was American SIGINT, Ottawa wouldn’t have the authority to unilaterally release it. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star
- dmix 3y ago
  > the intel was American SIGINT, Ottawa wouldn’t have the authority to unilaterally release it. They havent released any details of how they knew, we learned it was US from journalism. If they violated our sovereignty we have a right to know the details. The Indian gov can figure out they were wiretapped already. If ever there was grounds for releasing sensitive Intel this was it. When the Saudis killed that journalist it was revealed that Turkey had microphones inside their embassy. This is not some huge deal to reveal espionage of other agencies when the stakes are so high. I’m not sure what sort of evidence you think they’ll suddenly discover 6 months later which justifies not explaining the details which cause them to make the accusation in the first place. I don’t get how they can’t tell the public what the Indian gov specifically did but it was worth imposing the consequences of making the accusations public?
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > we have a right to know the details We do. But not immediately. > Indian gov can figure out they were wiretapped already But not how. Given how shadily they’re behaving, I wouldn’t want to declassify sources and methods too hastily either. If the rewards from keeping those methods live outweigh the gains from disclosure, that’s a valid foreign policy call. > but it was worth imposing the consequences of making the accusations public From all accounts, it going public was an accident. Ottawa was forced by the media getting a whiff of it. Washington made grunts and groans when necessary.
- shri_krishna 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Same as for the Israel-Gaza war, or any conflict whatsoever, one bad deed do not justify other bad deeds.
    - shri_krishna 3y ago
      Are you kidding me? Operation Blue Star was to liberate the Holy Temple of the Sikhs from the hands of a few Terroists who had seized it for 2 long years. All sorts of peaceful negotiations to get them out failed. They even shot and killed a Police man who had gone to the Temple for his daily prayers in the Temple itself. The liberation of the Golden Temple and handing it back to the Sikhs is not a "bad deed". It is a "good deed". If you don't understand the issue better not to comment on it. It has nothing to do with Israel-Gaza War and is not at all like it. Khalistani Terrorism is a fringe extremist movement that never took off in India. All the Terrorists who supported it ran to Canada, UK and US and sought refuge there. Don't forget that there are 26 million Sikhs in the World, with 20 million living in India and that too in one State of Punjab alone. The Khalistanis who live in the West hardly account for even 100,000 in total. They cannot and will never speak on behalf of the entire Sikh community. They just don't have the numbers. If the West wants to break relations with India by supporting this Terror group then it can do so. But we won't let our sovereignty and territorial integrity be threatened by a group we consider equivalent to Al Qaeda/Taliban. This group has been instrumental in bombing of Air India Flight 182 in which 268 Canadian Citizens were killed. India had asked for extradition of the Terrorist who carried out the bombing 40 years ago before the bombing even took place. The Prime Minister of Canada then (Trudeau's father) denied the extradition. And because he denied the extradition, the Terrorist was able to plot the attack and carry out the deadliest Terror attack in Canadian history. Learn your history before it is too late!
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > The liberation of the Golden Temple and handing it back to the Sikhs is not a "bad deed". It is a "good deed" I guess I understand why they’re pissed off now. > West wants to break relations with India by supporting this Terror group False dichotomy. You don’t conduct extrajudicial killings on American soil, full stop. If you do, you’re an enemy. This is a line even the Soviets respected. (And if you attempt it, don’t do it so stupidly you get caught. Twice.) Consider the political repercussions of America offing an Indian right now. Of course it would kill coöperation. No matter how much it made sense. It would be difficult to imagine the contrition it would take to heal that wound. And currently, there is zero contrition coming from New Delhi. > Learn your history before it is too late It’s never too late. And there are tens of thousands of frozen conflicts worldwide. The only reason this one is relevant is because New Delhi made the Khalistani cause international news.
llm_nerd 3y ago
This is such a partisan take: It's okay to not like the Trudeau government, but to distort your worldview based upon it is not productive. What "evidence" you think Canada must release to satisfy your zeal? Canada isn't appealing to some world hot take court for justice. And I have no idea what Canada's purported "poker hand" was. The government revealed an incident when the media discovered it and it continues at its normal pace behind the scenes. India had an apocalyptic, absurdly over the top fit and Canada yawned. India has literally zero sway over Canada so it was all rather ridiculous. And this US revelation clearly springs from exactly the same well (via exactly the same intelligence sharing). I mean, when the Canada revelation happened the US leaked that they were investigating something and has repeatedly announced their concern about this. If anything the outsized Indian reaction to Canada was precisely because they thought they could preempt this from the US.
- twisteriffic 3y ago
  > This is such a partisan take: It's okay to not like the Trudeau government, but to distort your worldview based upon it is not productive. Thank you for saying this. It's nice to know there are still reasonable people here.
- dmix 3y ago
  Oh come on India bullied Canada and got away with it. Maybe there is some “justice” coming but all that’s happened is Canada showed it was too scared to take any risk at all, had a soft as hell muted response by a leader who clearly isn’t respected enough to be taken seriously to sell consequences. His behaviour before this incident set this up for failure too, it’s a long built up pattern where Canada is losing its position as a diplomatic power player and this just shows our leadership as a global moral authority is basically been nullified. This is diplomatic and precedent setting as much as it’s a pursuit of some specific criminal justice. Obsessing about not disrupting the the economic/diplomatic/immigration status quo, not offending anybody even when they seriously violate your sovereignty, and just generally playing nice guy is not how you deal with this sort of situation.
  - stefan_ 3y ago