10 ms·

Interesting thought, but you might be missing the hardware perspective. I switched from Windows to Linux this year, and the biggest issue has been drivers and h

by gred 3y ago

Interesting thought, but you might be missing the hardware perspective. I switched from Windows to Linux this year, and the biggest issue has been drivers and hardware compatibility: audio available via headphones but not (laptop) built-in speakers, occasional display issues depending on the monitor setup, occasional WiFi issues. If hardware innovation stopped, Linux could catch up easily... but it won't, so there is a constant driver treadmill that manufacturers mostly handle for MS on the Windows side, but Linux has to handle somewhat alone. Perhaps the manufacturers will start to help out more and more on the Linux side too, as more users demand compatibility.

calamari4065 3y ago
I've had a much worse time with hardware on windows than Linux these last couple of years. My work laptop runs Windows and will get stuck in a BSPD bootloop if I turn it on with external monitors connected. My USB keyboard and mouse disconnect every few minutes. Windows may as well not even have Bluetooth for as well as it works. Some devices always show as connected, despite not being present. I have to un-pair my headphones every time I want to connect. Sometimes I have to reboot my computer to get them to work. Windows also doesn't even support Bluetooth audio sink. On Linux, I can play audio from my phone to my computer and pipe it back into my Bluetooth headphones. Windows 7 supported this, but 10 does not. I've even used some weird old PCI cards that only have XP drivers, but work fine with Linux. The only hardware I've had trouble with in the last 5 years is Nvidia cards. And that's a deliberate decision made by Nvidia to not support Linux. AMD cards work perfectly. I haven't seen problems with audio or WiFi on Linux in over ten years.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  > some weird old PCI cards that only have XP drivers, but work fine with Linux. I will say, supporting old hardware is probably Linux's strong suit, because their model of upstream first means that maintenance tends to get carried a lot further than proprietary drivers ever would.
- xoac 3y ago
  Recent nvidia (3-4 series) cards work pretty well now.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- geodel 3y ago
  >I've had a much worse time with hardware on windows than Linux these last couple of years. I don't doubt that as I have had same experience. But somehow Windows has to get worse from non-technical users' perspective to be real trouble for Microsoft. So far my spouse still find think Windows is the normal thing despite using rather trouble-free, fast Mac at home for many years along with horribly slow and problematic Windows laptop provided by employer. So even with their own first-hand experience with Windows problems they consider Linux or Mac difficult/exotic thing.
  - calamari4065 3y ago
    I genuinely, truly do not understand how Microsoft, let alone any user, can accept the current state of Windows' Bluetooth stack. It's completely broken, core features are simply not implemented. Microsoft themselves provide a better Bluetooth UI in one of their WPF demo repos than the one shipped with Windows. Maybe I'm biased because my job involves building Bluetooth hardware and software for Windows, but even just trying to use normal devices like headphones or controllers is absolute anguish. Bluetooth on Linux isn't perfect: I frequently have to unpair and repair my headphones, but at least it's feature complete. Anything that Bluetooth can do is exposed. Linux even comes with some really advanced CLI utilities to manage Bluetooth devices. On windows you're lucky to find a WinRT function for what you want, and it probably doesn't even work. Windows 7 had a complete Bluetooth implementation, but Microsoft decided to rewrite everything from scratch. I guess the intern they delegated it to had to go back to their job at Starbucks before they finished.
- TheCoelacanth 3y ago
  Linux blows away Windows hardware support on everything except for graphics cards. I set up dual boot on a newish Dell laptop recently and Windows couldn't even access the SSD or the wifi card without installing extra drivers. I haven't had problems that bad on Linux since about 2006.
  - calamari4065 3y ago
    Even dual booting is less of an option these days. If you aren't careful, windows will clobber your boot records and force itself to be the default and only boot option. I've even heard of Windows erasing grub during normal updates. I just erased windows from my personal machines. I've been exclusively on Linux for 5 years or more
- jerf 3y ago
  "I've had a much worse time with hardware on windows than Linux these last couple of years." And I want to emphasize and underline my point here that if Microsoft does just let Windows languish, we are going to gradually see this more and more every year. There won't be a big bang wakeup call. There will always be people who can say "But I haven't had a problem". What you won't be able to easily tell on the forums is that the ratios will slowly-but-surely shift, but again, with no big-bang wakeup. I just bought a brand-new fully-AMD-based laptop for the family, stuck the latest Ubuntu on it, and almost everything works. The only thing that I've found that doesn't is that if I play a game and push it out the HDMI port, we get audio dropouts. It isn't everything on the HDMI port, we watched a lengthy YouTube video with no dropouts. But wifi, bluetooth, all the keyboard controls, battery, everything else I've seen is working.
  - calamari4065 3y ago
    I honestly think we've already passed the peak and are already in the slow decline. Microsoft has already pushed too hard and alienated too many users. Now they'll slowly keep losing market share while desperately squeezing the remaining market for all its worth until there's nothing left. Their momentum will carry them for an unfortunately long time.
vidarh 3y ago
My latest PC was a pretty randomly chosen Chinese PC from Amazon that advertised Ubuntu compatibility. In other words, except that advantage to slowly slip away from Microsoft too. It's been years since I really put any effort into checking before buying - it had gotten to the point I could assume that issues would be minor and/or resolved soon after purchase.
- tomComb 3y ago
  Those PC's look like great value and availability and are clearly very popular - have squeezed out other options like Intel NUC. Very tempting. But I've heard that you pretty much never get a BIOS update and the quality of any such update is going to be dubious. Nothing sinister about this - it is simply a bargain basement option. So, you are really throwing security out the window.
  - eric__cartman 3y ago
    Security shouldn't be much of an issue with most modern CPUs. The microcode can be updated at boot time by the kernel, even if the one loaded by the BIOS is out of date. So microcode level patches are taken care of. That leaves attacks on secure boot, which could be feasible with a bad implementation, but I doubt most home users would have to worry about an evil maid attack.
    - vidarh 3y ago
      Yeah, it's just not a factor. If it was a laptop that I randomly left unattended a lot or used on unsecured networks, maybe I'd care.
  - vidarh 3y ago
    I've never in my life applied a bios update. It's really not on any list of things I'd care about.
jmnicolas 3y ago
I'm at the beginning of my third desktop Linux year and I managed to install it on all the hardware I have thrown at it ranging from 10+ years old PCs to a recent Ryzen workstation and a Framework laptop. I'm not a Linux guru by any mean, there's only one distro that gave me problems: OpenSuse. I'm currently on Fedora.
robertlagrant 3y ago
Agreed. I have a Linux computer upstairs, and the Wifi dongle (I know, but it's fine!) broke. Buying a new one, or even knowing what to buy, that doesn't require me to USB key some random drivers (probably cloned off GitHub) is a tricky task.
- graphe 3y ago
  Do you use Linux? There are no driver packages on GitHub you make. It's all in the kernel.
  - almostnormal 3y ago
    There are kernel modules on github. Some of them are drivers. https://github.com/topics/linux-kernel-module https://github.com/topics/linux-kernel-module
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    Yes, this is Linux. Have a look[0]. [0] https://github.com/lwfinger?tab=repositories https://github.com/lwfinger?tab=repositories
    - graphe 3y ago
      Do you need to build them? I never had a problem. Usually you just need to enable proprietary drivers in the install to have it work.
- anotherhue 3y ago
  The rpi forums have a lot of experience with this.
  - throw555chip 3y ago
    RPI has crap, buy Dell, HP or Lenovo.
- throw555chip 3y ago
aleph_minus_one 3y ago
> Perhaps the manufacturers will start to help out more and more on the Linux side too, as more users demand compatibility. I do believe that manufacturers would be willing to help out if GNU/Linux was sufficiently standardized that they can simply drop some code/binary that works on basically every GNU/Linux distribution (just as they can basically do on Windows). The problem is that GNU/Linux is not some single operating system, but a proliferation of lots of different distributions.
- Hello71 3y ago
  the parent comment explains why dumping a blob is bad, particularly for drivers. it allows vendors to depend on all sorts of undocumented and unreliable behavior and prevents upstream improvements.
wavemode 3y ago
While I agree with you broadly that hardware support is a problem for less popular operation systems, I can personally say that Fedora has been a dream for me, hardware-wise, for a while now. My 7900XT GPU just works. My printer just works. My webcam just works. My headset just works. My audio interface just works (the audio I/O, at least - I haven't actually ever tested the MIDI I/O). I'm certain I've gotten lucky, and I'm certain there's plenty of edge cases to be ironed out, especially with more specialized hardware. But I think a lot of common consumer goods are in a good place right now, at least in my personal experience.
throw555chip 3y ago
> switched from Windows to Linux this year, and the biggest issue has been drivers and hardware compatibility It's not 1999, this hasn't been an issue for me on any Dell, HP or Lenovo system in 2 decades.
- deely3 3y ago
  Hey, which Dell, HP, Lenovo laptop you used in this time? I really-really want to know which system doesn't have any issues on Linux. Also what Linux version your used? Pretty please?
toast0 3y ago
> If hardware innovation stopped, Linux could catch up easily... but it won't, so there is a constant driver treadmill that manufacturers mostly handle for MS on the Windows side, but Linux has to handle somewhat alone. Hardware innovation hasn't stopped, but there's a lot less diversity than the past. For mainstream desktop, there's only three video card vendors (it's different on mobile, and servers have ASPEED's 2d cards to work with), sound cards are pretty much dead: HDAudio takes care of most of it but jack detection issues persist, Broadcom is poised to buy up all storage card vendors, Networking vendors are limited. Intel is pretty good at supporting its products for Windows, Linux, and sometimes FreeBSD. If you buy only stuff they make, you can cover all your peripheral needs and move on with your life. Most other vendors of important devices have code dumped drivers for Linux and sometimes FreeBSD for at least for some of their devices. This gets more frequent as there's more consolidation. The Linux drivers might not be great, and the code is usually full of unexplained magic values, but it's a start. There's also the potential of running Windows drivers elsewhere; it sometimes works for network drivers (something something NDIS)
the8472 3y ago
On the other hand once something works on linux it may do so for a long time without being dependent on the vendor to release a new version for each new major windows version. For me it's a cheap old flatbed scanner where the last windows drivers are for XP but it still works on an rolling release distro.

by gred 3y ago

calamari4065 3y ago

I've had a much worse time with hardware on windows than Linux these last couple of years. My work laptop runs Windows and will get stuck in a BSPD bootloop if I turn it on with external monitors connected. My USB keyboard and mouse disconnect every few minutes. Windows may as well not even have Bluetooth for as well as it works. Some devices always show as connected, despite not being present. I have to un-pair my headphones every time I want to connect. Sometimes I have to reboot my computer to get them to work. Windows also doesn't even support Bluetooth audio sink. On Linux, I can play audio from my phone to my computer and pipe it back into my Bluetooth headphones. Windows 7 supported this, but 10 does not. I've even used some weird old PCI cards that only have XP drivers, but work fine with Linux. The only hardware I've had trouble with in the last 5 years is Nvidia cards. And that's a deliberate decision made by Nvidia to not support Linux. AMD cards work perfectly. I haven't seen problems with audio or WiFi on Linux in over ten years.

yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
> some weird old PCI cards that only have XP drivers, but work fine with Linux. I will say, supporting old hardware is probably Linux's strong suit, because their model of upstream first means that maintenance tends to get carried a lot further than proprietary drivers ever would.
xoac 3y ago
Recent nvidia (3-4 series) cards work pretty well now.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
geodel 3y ago
>I've had a much worse time with hardware on windows than Linux these last couple of years. I don't doubt that as I have had same experience. But somehow Windows has to get worse from non-technical users' perspective to be real trouble for Microsoft. So far my spouse still find think Windows is the normal thing despite using rather trouble-free, fast Mac at home for many years along with horribly slow and problematic Windows laptop provided by employer. So even with their own first-hand experience with Windows problems they consider Linux or Mac difficult/exotic thing.
- calamari4065 3y ago
  I genuinely, truly do not understand how Microsoft, let alone any user, can accept the current state of Windows' Bluetooth stack. It's completely broken, core features are simply not implemented. Microsoft themselves provide a better Bluetooth UI in one of their WPF demo repos than the one shipped with Windows. Maybe I'm biased because my job involves building Bluetooth hardware and software for Windows, but even just trying to use normal devices like headphones or controllers is absolute anguish. Bluetooth on Linux isn't perfect: I frequently have to unpair and repair my headphones, but at least it's feature complete. Anything that Bluetooth can do is exposed. Linux even comes with some really advanced CLI utilities to manage Bluetooth devices. On windows you're lucky to find a WinRT function for what you want, and it probably doesn't even work. Windows 7 had a complete Bluetooth implementation, but Microsoft decided to rewrite everything from scratch. I guess the intern they delegated it to had to go back to their job at Starbucks before they finished.
TheCoelacanth 3y ago
Linux blows away Windows hardware support on everything except for graphics cards. I set up dual boot on a newish Dell laptop recently and Windows couldn't even access the SSD or the wifi card without installing extra drivers. I haven't had problems that bad on Linux since about 2006.
- calamari4065 3y ago
  Even dual booting is less of an option these days. If you aren't careful, windows will clobber your boot records and force itself to be the default and only boot option. I've even heard of Windows erasing grub during normal updates. I just erased windows from my personal machines. I've been exclusively on Linux for 5 years or more
jerf 3y ago
"I've had a much worse time with hardware on windows than Linux these last couple of years." And I want to emphasize and underline my point here that if Microsoft does just let Windows languish, we are going to gradually see this more and more every year. There won't be a big bang wakeup call. There will always be people who can say "But I haven't had a problem". What you won't be able to easily tell on the forums is that the ratios will slowly-but-surely shift, but again, with no big-bang wakeup. I just bought a brand-new fully-AMD-based laptop for the family, stuck the latest Ubuntu on it, and almost everything works. The only thing that I've found that doesn't is that if I play a game and push it out the HDMI port, we get audio dropouts. It isn't everything on the HDMI port, we watched a lengthy YouTube video with no dropouts. But wifi, bluetooth, all the keyboard controls, battery, everything else I've seen is working.
- calamari4065 3y ago
  I honestly think we've already passed the peak and are already in the slow decline. Microsoft has already pushed too hard and alienated too many users. Now they'll slowly keep losing market share while desperately squeezing the remaining market for all its worth until there's nothing left. Their momentum will carry them for an unfortunately long time.

vidarh 3y ago

My latest PC was a pretty randomly chosen Chinese PC from Amazon that advertised Ubuntu compatibility. In other words, except that advantage to slowly slip away from Microsoft too. It's been years since I really put any effort into checking before buying - it had gotten to the point I could assume that issues would be minor and/or resolved soon after purchase.

tomComb 3y ago
Those PC's look like great value and availability and are clearly very popular - have squeezed out other options like Intel NUC. Very tempting. But I've heard that you pretty much never get a BIOS update and the quality of any such update is going to be dubious. Nothing sinister about this - it is simply a bargain basement option. So, you are really throwing security out the window.
- eric__cartman 3y ago
  Security shouldn't be much of an issue with most modern CPUs. The microcode can be updated at boot time by the kernel, even if the one loaded by the BIOS is out of date. So microcode level patches are taken care of. That leaves attacks on secure boot, which could be feasible with a bad implementation, but I doubt most home users would have to worry about an evil maid attack.
  - vidarh 3y ago
    Yeah, it's just not a factor. If it was a laptop that I randomly left unattended a lot or used on unsecured networks, maybe I'd care.
- vidarh 3y ago
  I've never in my life applied a bios update. It's really not on any list of things I'd care about.

jmnicolas 3y ago

I'm at the beginning of my third desktop Linux year and I managed to install it on all the hardware I have thrown at it ranging from 10+ years old PCs to a recent Ryzen workstation and a Framework laptop. I'm not a Linux guru by any mean, there's only one distro that gave me problems: OpenSuse. I'm currently on Fedora.

robertlagrant 3y ago

Agreed. I have a Linux computer upstairs, and the Wifi dongle (I know, but it's fine!) broke. Buying a new one, or even knowing what to buy, that doesn't require me to USB key some random drivers (probably cloned off GitHub) is a tricky task.

graphe 3y ago
Do you use Linux? There are no driver packages on GitHub you make. It's all in the kernel.
- almostnormal 3y ago
  There are kernel modules on github. Some of them are drivers. https://github.com/topics/linux-kernel-module https://github.com/topics/linux-kernel-module
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  Yes, this is Linux. Have a look[0]. [0] https://github.com/lwfinger?tab=repositories https://github.com/lwfinger?tab=repositories
  - graphe 3y ago
    Do you need to build them? I never had a problem. Usually you just need to enable proprietary drivers in the install to have it work.
anotherhue 3y ago
The rpi forums have a lot of experience with this.
- throw555chip 3y ago
  RPI has crap, buy Dell, HP or Lenovo.
throw555chip 3y ago

aleph_minus_one 3y ago

> Perhaps the manufacturers will start to help out more and more on the Linux side too, as more users demand compatibility. I do believe that manufacturers would be willing to help out if GNU/Linux was sufficiently standardized that they can simply drop some code/binary that works on basically every GNU/Linux distribution (just as they can basically do on Windows). The problem is that GNU/Linux is not some single operating system, but a proliferation of lots of different distributions.

Hello71 3y ago
the parent comment explains why dumping a blob is bad, particularly for drivers. it allows vendors to depend on all sorts of undocumented and unreliable behavior and prevents upstream improvements.

wavemode 3y ago

While I agree with you broadly that hardware support is a problem for less popular operation systems, I can personally say that Fedora has been a dream for me, hardware-wise, for a while now. My 7900XT GPU just works. My printer just works. My webcam just works. My headset just works. My audio interface just works (the audio I/O, at least - I haven't actually ever tested the MIDI I/O). I'm certain I've gotten lucky, and I'm certain there's plenty of edge cases to be ironed out, especially with more specialized hardware. But I think a lot of common consumer goods are in a good place right now, at least in my personal experience.

throw555chip 3y ago

> switched from Windows to Linux this year, and the biggest issue has been drivers and hardware compatibility It's not 1999, this hasn't been an issue for me on any Dell, HP or Lenovo system in 2 decades.

deely3 3y ago
Hey, which Dell, HP, Lenovo laptop you used in this time? I really-really want to know which system doesn't have any issues on Linux. Also what Linux version your used? Pretty please?

toast0 3y ago

> If hardware innovation stopped, Linux could catch up easily... but it won't, so there is a constant driver treadmill that manufacturers mostly handle for MS on the Windows side, but Linux has to handle somewhat alone. Hardware innovation hasn't stopped, but there's a lot less diversity than the past. For mainstream desktop, there's only three video card vendors (it's different on mobile, and servers have ASPEED's 2d cards to work with), sound cards are pretty much dead: HDAudio takes care of most of it but jack detection issues persist, Broadcom is poised to buy up all storage card vendors, Networking vendors are limited. Intel is pretty good at supporting its products for Windows, Linux, and sometimes FreeBSD. If you buy only stuff they make, you can cover all your peripheral needs and move on with your life. Most other vendors of important devices have code dumped drivers for Linux and sometimes FreeBSD for at least for some of their devices. This gets more frequent as there's more consolidation. The Linux drivers might not be great, and the code is usually full of unexplained magic values, but it's a start. There's also the potential of running Windows drivers elsewhere; it sometimes works for network drivers (something something NDIS)

the8472 3y ago

On the other hand once something works on linux it may do so for a long time without being dependent on the vendor to release a new version for each new major windows version. For me it's a cheap old flatbed scanner where the last windows drivers are for XP but it still works on an rolling release distro.