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I don't really buy it. It's not like capitalism is something new in the US. Blaming the change on something that's always been there is not really a good argume

I don't really buy it. It's not like capitalism is something new in the US. Blaming the change on something that's always been there is not really a good argument. Besides car-centrism isn't inherently needed either in a capitalistic society. You can live your whole life in a lot of capitalist countries without a car

jmyeet 3y ago
Times change. Feudalism existed for centuries until it fell to capitalism. Prior to WW2 there was a strong labor movement in the US. There was a reason the US was paranoid about communists. Abraham Lincoln was basically a Marxist in this sense [1][2]. That's how far right things have shifted, particularly since Ronald Reagan. The Red Scare dstroyed any sense of class consciousness people had and neoliberalism ran wild. This doesn't happen overnight. [1]: https://www.cooperative-individualism.org/lincoln-abraham_on-labor-and-capital-1861.htm https://www.cooperative-individualism.org/lincoln-abraham_on... [2]: https://www.openculture.com/2022/01/how-karl-marx-influenced-abraham-lincoln-and-his-position-on-slavery-labor.html https://www.openculture.com/2022/01/how-karl-marx-influenced...
- lowkeyoptimist 3y ago
  Here is the full speech for reference, but Abraham Lincoln was far from a Marxist given that he describes essentially the American dream of starting from nothing to build your own enterprise. "Again, as has already been said, there is not of necessity any such thing as the free hired laborer being fixed to that condition for life. Many independent men everywhere in these States a few years back in their lives were hired laborers. The prudent, penniless beginner in the world labors for wages awhile, saves a surplus with which to buy tools or land for himself, then labors on his own account another while, and at length hires another new beginner to help him. This is the just and generous and prosperous system which opens the way to all, gives hope to all, and consequent energy and progress and improvement of condition to all." [1]:https://millercenter.org/the-presidency/presidential-speeches/december-3-1861-first-annual-message https://millercenter.org/the-presidency/presidential-speeche...
  - jmyeet 3y ago
    He's talking about workers owning the means of production. That's straight socialism. Small businesses are socialist. Family farms are socialist. It's large companies that become capitalist as the workers become further and further removed from the means of production. Also, Lincoln is talking about the master-apprentice relationship common in trades. We've seen such arrangements erode in our society. Now we expect people to take out student loans and fund their own education and then spend years paying off that debt. Lincoln's approach is, at a minimum, collectivist.
- gammalost 3y ago
  I don't get how any of this is related to a car dependent society. Abraham was certainly not a marxist. Even if he was wasn't really the question of car dependency on the agenda during his time. The US isn't the only capitalistic country. I live in Sweden for example where car dependency isn't really an issue for people in small tows/suburbs

jmyeet 3y ago

Times change. Feudalism existed for centuries until it fell to capitalism. Prior to WW2 there was a strong labor movement in the US. There was a reason the US was paranoid about communists. Abraham Lincoln was basically a Marxist in this sense [1][2]. That's how far right things have shifted, particularly since Ronald Reagan. The Red Scare dstroyed any sense of class consciousness people had and neoliberalism ran wild. This doesn't happen overnight. [1]: https://www.cooperative-individualism.org/lincoln-abraham_on-labor-and-capital-1861.htm https://www.cooperative-individualism.org/lincoln-abraham_on... [2]: https://www.openculture.com/2022/01/how-karl-marx-influenced-abraham-lincoln-and-his-position-on-slavery-labor.html https://www.openculture.com/2022/01/how-karl-marx-influenced...

lowkeyoptimist 3y ago
Here is the full speech for reference, but Abraham Lincoln was far from a Marxist given that he describes essentially the American dream of starting from nothing to build your own enterprise. "Again, as has already been said, there is not of necessity any such thing as the free hired laborer being fixed to that condition for life. Many independent men everywhere in these States a few years back in their lives were hired laborers. The prudent, penniless beginner in the world labors for wages awhile, saves a surplus with which to buy tools or land for himself, then labors on his own account another while, and at length hires another new beginner to help him. This is the just and generous and prosperous system which opens the way to all, gives hope to all, and consequent energy and progress and improvement of condition to all." [1]:https://millercenter.org/the-presidency/presidential-speeches/december-3-1861-first-annual-message https://millercenter.org/the-presidency/presidential-speeche...
- jmyeet 3y ago
  He's talking about workers owning the means of production. That's straight socialism. Small businesses are socialist. Family farms are socialist. It's large companies that become capitalist as the workers become further and further removed from the means of production. Also, Lincoln is talking about the master-apprentice relationship common in trades. We've seen such arrangements erode in our society. Now we expect people to take out student loans and fund their own education and then spend years paying off that debt. Lincoln's approach is, at a minimum, collectivist.
gammalost 3y ago
I don't get how any of this is related to a car dependent society. Abraham was certainly not a marxist. Even if he was wasn't really the question of car dependency on the agenda during his time. The US isn't the only capitalistic country. I live in Sweden for example where car dependency isn't really an issue for people in small tows/suburbs