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You say this. Where's the proof? I have screenshots and am friends with an FBI agent who just happens to be in a cybercrimes unit. I'll wait a few hours to s

You say this. Where's the proof? I have screenshots and am friends with an FBI agent who just happens to be in a cybercrimes unit. I'll wait a few hours to see if the story continues to be absent from HN and after that I'm submitting a tip.

nickthegreek 3y ago
You are going to send a tip to the FBI over the cybercrime of a story not being on the front page of a discussion site when you looked?
- upwardbound 3y ago
  I didn't look just once, what I have is essentially a time lapse, with screenshots which I took every 15 seconds, roughly. If it turns out that someone at YC used even the flagging feature of their regular (non-mod) user account to manipulate this YC-owned forum for financial gain, then that could certainly be in Cybercrimes' jurisdiction, with the caveat being that it has to be inter-state to be in Federal jurisdiction. So this would only apply if one of the people conducting manipulation was located outside of California. .... Unless it can be argued that since OpenAI is legally in Delaware, that even a person based in California would meet the interstate criteria via the California-Delaware distinction. Here's an example FBI case from their website that shares some similar overall features to what the crime would be, if there turns out to have been a crime. https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwa/pr/two-new-yorkers-plead-guilty-scheme-bribe-amazon-employees-inside-information-and https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwa/pr/two-new-yorkers-plead-g...
  - pvg 3y ago
    Fiddling with the order of HN stories is not a crime and stories constantly jump around multiple spots, all the time.
Kye 3y ago
Is this a copypasta?
dang 3y ago
"Proof" isn't achievable. If you don't believe what I'm saying, that's totally ok, but then you wouldn't believe me if I said anything proofier either. One can always find reasons why someone could be lying. Even if I showed you all of the code and all of the data, I might have snuck in and edited something, no? We've found the best approach is to answer questions openly, let the answer persuade those who find it persuasive, and not chase diminishing returns down the long tail of objections. That approach only works if the community finds it persuasive—otherwise hellfire would rain on our heads—but empirically, the bulk of the community does. I think most people understand that it isn't in our interests to lie about how we administer HN. The good faith of the community is the only value that HN has. Why would we risk that, and for what? Edit: actually this is kind of an interesting example to work through. Let's assume the OP is authentic, everything in it is true, and that it's an important new development (what I called SNI here yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38357788 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38357788). How would it help YC if we suppressed it on HN? It would only make the HN threads less interesting, since (by hypothesis) the real story wouldn't be getting discussed. People would leave HN in search of interesting discussion elsewhere. That would make HN less valuable. Meanwhile, being an important story, it would end up getting attention everywhere else, people would keep posting it to HN, and we'd have to keep suppressing it. We'd end up in a fight with the community, a fight we'd be sure to lose. This is a way to destroy HN, not squeeze extra value out of it! My guess is that users are flagging this story because of some combo of: they doubt that it's authentic; they doubt that its claims are true; and/or they don't think the claims are SNI* even if they are true. Perhaps some are thinking "oh my god, not another open letter—I'm so sick of this saga..." I get that you do consider it true and important, but so far, the community verdict is against your view. If the flaggers are wrong, they story will get some confirmatory reporting soon enough. I'd be surprised if a few eager reporters aren't already looking into it. If they find some there there, we'll be able to have a discussion soon enough. In the meantime, this story hasn't yet cleared the bar for SNI—especially since there are dozens of articles being posted about this topic right now. * Significant New Information - see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38357788 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38357788 etc.
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nickthegreek 3y ago

You are going to send a tip to the FBI over the cybercrime of a story not being on the front page of a discussion site when you looked?

upwardbound 3y ago
I didn't look just once, what I have is essentially a time lapse, with screenshots which I took every 15 seconds, roughly. If it turns out that someone at YC used even the flagging feature of their regular (non-mod) user account to manipulate this YC-owned forum for financial gain, then that could certainly be in Cybercrimes' jurisdiction, with the caveat being that it has to be inter-state to be in Federal jurisdiction. So this would only apply if one of the people conducting manipulation was located outside of California. .... Unless it can be argued that since OpenAI is legally in Delaware, that even a person based in California would meet the interstate criteria via the California-Delaware distinction. Here's an example FBI case from their website that shares some similar overall features to what the crime would be, if there turns out to have been a crime. https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwa/pr/two-new-yorkers-plead-guilty-scheme-bribe-amazon-employees-inside-information-and https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwa/pr/two-new-yorkers-plead-g...
- pvg 3y ago
  Fiddling with the order of HN stories is not a crime and stories constantly jump around multiple spots, all the time.

Kye 3y ago

Is this a copypasta?

dang 3y ago

"Proof" isn't achievable. If you don't believe what I'm saying, that's totally ok, but then you wouldn't believe me if I said anything proofier either. One can always find reasons why someone could be lying. Even if I showed you all of the code and all of the data, I might have snuck in and edited something, no? We've found the best approach is to answer questions openly, let the answer persuade those who find it persuasive, and not chase diminishing returns down the long tail of objections. That approach only works if the community finds it persuasive—otherwise hellfire would rain on our heads—but empirically, the bulk of the community does. I think most people understand that it isn't in our interests to lie about how we administer HN. The good faith of the community is the only value that HN has. Why would we risk that, and for what? Edit: actually this is kind of an interesting example to work through. Let's assume the OP is authentic, everything in it is true, and that it's an important new development (what I called SNI here yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38357788 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38357788). How would it help YC if we suppressed it on HN? It would only make the HN threads less interesting, since (by hypothesis) the real story wouldn't be getting discussed. People would leave HN in search of interesting discussion elsewhere. That would make HN less valuable. Meanwhile, being an important story, it would end up getting attention everywhere else, people would keep posting it to HN, and we'd have to keep suppressing it. We'd end up in a fight with the community, a fight we'd be sure to lose. This is a way to destroy HN, not squeeze extra value out of it! My guess is that users are flagging this story because of some combo of: they doubt that it's authentic; they doubt that its claims are true; and/or they don't think the claims are SNI* even if they are true. Perhaps some are thinking "oh my god, not another open letter—I'm so sick of this saga..." I get that you do consider it true and important, but so far, the community verdict is against your view. If the flaggers are wrong, they story will get some confirmatory reporting soon enough. I'd be surprised if a few eager reporters aren't already looking into it. If they find some there there, we'll be able to have a discussion soon enough. In the meantime, this story hasn't yet cleared the bar for SNI—especially since there are dozens of articles being posted about this topic right now. * Significant New Information - see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38357788 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38357788 etc.

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