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They don't have to vent air though, for the same reasons we don't need to vent air for geothermal heat pumps. It doesn't seem all that crazy to drill minimally

They don't have to vent air though, for the same reasons we don't need to vent air for geothermal heat pumps. It doesn't seem all that crazy to drill minimally for some coolant lines and run a mini-split style heat pump system into the hottest stations. I'm not saying this is easy per se, but far from impossible, or impossibly expensive.

gsnedders 3y ago
This has been done to some degree at Green Park station, which still very much is quite warm in places, for ~£9M about a decade ago. But when TfL has had its budget slashed, and such projects are competing for financing with other projects with more direct operational benefit… it's hard to justify. And it's still not necessarily easy to drill at all!
- ProfessorLayton 3y ago
  Agreed that drilling isn't easy, but this does seem more like a budgetary and political issue than an engineering challenge. Not much (if any) drilling may even be necessary, as there's also the option of running coolant lines directly into the train tunnels. Existing water infrastructure could also be used as coolant — especially if it's otherwise sitting idle for a fire that hopefully never happens!
  - SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
    > seem more like a budgetary and political issue than an engineering challenge. Science is about proving that something can be done at all. Engineering is about taking that result and productionising it - doing it reliably, safely, effectively and on a budget. On the right site, even if that's in a busy city. "time and budget issues" are part of any engineering challenge. Very few engineering projects are "Money no object". An also, there currently isn't the political will in the UK to invest in expensive infrastructure and engineering projects. London actually gets more investment than the hinterlands. See https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/whats-happening-hs2-britains-costly-high-speed-railway-2023-10-04/ https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/whats-happening-hs2-britain...
    - ProfessorLayton 3y ago
      It seems like we're in agreement here? Geothermal heat pumps aren't particularly novel, so it doesn't seem like engineering a solution is the blocker here. It's mainly politics.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
        Exactly, budget is an engineering concern, and in this case it's nigh impossible to engineer a solution, given the space and budgetary constraints.
        ProfessorLayton 3y ago
        The budgetary constraints are purely political though. Stuff like this has been engineered before at a reasonable cost (eg the Green Park station for 9M according to a poster above). So while yes things have to be engineered to a cost, it’s clearly not some impossibility high number.

gsnedders 3y ago

This has been done to some degree at Green Park station, which still very much is quite warm in places, for ~£9M about a decade ago. But when TfL has had its budget slashed, and such projects are competing for financing with other projects with more direct operational benefit… it's hard to justify. And it's still not necessarily easy to drill at all!

ProfessorLayton 3y ago
Agreed that drilling isn't easy, but this does seem more like a budgetary and political issue than an engineering challenge. Not much (if any) drilling may even be necessary, as there's also the option of running coolant lines directly into the train tunnels. Existing water infrastructure could also be used as coolant — especially if it's otherwise sitting idle for a fire that hopefully never happens!
- SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
  > seem more like a budgetary and political issue than an engineering challenge. Science is about proving that something can be done at all. Engineering is about taking that result and productionising it - doing it reliably, safely, effectively and on a budget. On the right site, even if that's in a busy city. "time and budget issues" are part of any engineering challenge. Very few engineering projects are "Money no object". An also, there currently isn't the political will in the UK to invest in expensive infrastructure and engineering projects. London actually gets more investment than the hinterlands. See https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/whats-happening-hs2-britains-costly-high-speed-railway-2023-10-04/ https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/whats-happening-hs2-britain...
  - ProfessorLayton 3y ago
    It seems like we're in agreement here? Geothermal heat pumps aren't particularly novel, so it doesn't seem like engineering a solution is the blocker here. It's mainly politics.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
      Exactly, budget is an engineering concern, and in this case it's nigh impossible to engineer a solution, given the space and budgetary constraints.
      - ProfessorLayton 3y ago
        The budgetary constraints are purely political though. Stuff like this has been engineered before at a reasonable cost (eg the Green Park station for 9M according to a poster above). So while yes things have to be engineered to a cost, it’s clearly not some impossibility high number.