4 ms·

Surely quality of life for the citizens should matter more than the aggregate amount of wealth held/generated by a country, no? Whether Europe is ahead in this

Surely quality of life for the citizens should matter more than the aggregate amount of wealth held/generated by a country, no? Whether Europe is ahead in this regard can be debated I suppose, and in some ways some forms of wealth is a means to this end, but does it really matter in the grand scheme of things that Britain might be as poor as Mississippi?

mytailorisrich 3y ago
How do you sustain quality of life if you get poorer and poorer relatively to others?
- boxed 3y ago
  How do you improve quality of life if 1% robs the 99% so they can't afford to improve their lives? GDP is a bad measure. We all know this.
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    Straw man argument. This has nothing to do with the point. There us also nothing wrong with GDP as a metric. It measures something specific like all metrics and issues only arise when it is conflated or confused with other metrics (like you do in your comment). This is about GDP, i.e. production of wealth. I'm claiming that not only we need production of wealth but we also need to keep up with others in order to keep a good standard of living. Now, we also need a good distribution of wealth for everyone to benefit, but that is another issue. And 'robbing' other is completely OT.
    - shortsunblack 3y ago
      U.S. does not use pavers for its sidewalks. Instead they concrete over the surface. Europe uses pavers (clay, concrete, whatever). Anytime the city needs to access the utilities under the concrete, they get sledgehammers and start destroying the concrete. They access their utilities, fix the stuff and order new concrete to be poured. Concrete trucks come over. City gets billed 25,000 US$ for couple square meters of fresh new concrete. GDP number gets 25,000 US$ added to it, despite no real wealth being created. Contrast this to Europe, where utilities come, grab the little pavers, move them to side, access and fix the utilities, reinstall the old pavers back in same fashion as they took it out. No 25,000 US$ concrete bill. And this is just one of the examples of inefficiency in your "wealthy" society. What we have here is broken window fallacy and misappropriation of resources, but there's also negative wealth you create. Wealth that costs more then it ever has created. Think of all the asphalt you love to create, which creates heat island effect, which requires ACs to handle. Along all the steps of the production "wealth" is being "created".
      - mytailorisrich 3y ago
        I already called the straw man. Please don't double down on it, especially when what you wrote is not even factual.
        boxed 3y ago
        Just FYI this is a different person that replied to you. And no, it's not a straw man. And it's not incorrect. GDP is extremely vulnerable to broken window economics. The entire US healthcare system for example. It should really be subtracted from the GDP, not added to it.
        mytailorisrich 3y ago
        Obviously I know it is not the same person (you). It is still a straw man to the point of the discussion, you are still adding to the straw man and making strange claims, which at this points make me suspect that you simply do not understand it despite the explanation or are too blinded by ideological bias. Either way, that's a 'bye' from me because there is discussion possible ("we all know this" was a big red flag). Lasty, his comment was indeed not factual because what he wrote about sidewalks in Europe is plainly BS (an I am an European).
        namaria 3y ago
        You're building a strawman out of a red herring my friend. If you're gonna be pedantic at least get it right.
- notRobot 3y ago
  Why would that matter? I genuinely want to understand.
db48x 3y ago
I think it does matter, but on the other hand it is true that the folks in Mississippi are not really all that poor when considered globally.
- notRobot 3y ago
  Please elaborate on your position so I can understand it better.

mytailorisrich 3y ago

How do you sustain quality of life if you get poorer and poorer relatively to others?

boxed 3y ago
How do you improve quality of life if 1% robs the 99% so they can't afford to improve their lives? GDP is a bad measure. We all know this.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  Straw man argument. This has nothing to do with the point. There us also nothing wrong with GDP as a metric. It measures something specific like all metrics and issues only arise when it is conflated or confused with other metrics (like you do in your comment). This is about GDP, i.e. production of wealth. I'm claiming that not only we need production of wealth but we also need to keep up with others in order to keep a good standard of living. Now, we also need a good distribution of wealth for everyone to benefit, but that is another issue. And 'robbing' other is completely OT.
  - shortsunblack 3y ago
    U.S. does not use pavers for its sidewalks. Instead they concrete over the surface. Europe uses pavers (clay, concrete, whatever). Anytime the city needs to access the utilities under the concrete, they get sledgehammers and start destroying the concrete. They access their utilities, fix the stuff and order new concrete to be poured. Concrete trucks come over. City gets billed 25,000 US$ for couple square meters of fresh new concrete. GDP number gets 25,000 US$ added to it, despite no real wealth being created. Contrast this to Europe, where utilities come, grab the little pavers, move them to side, access and fix the utilities, reinstall the old pavers back in same fashion as they took it out. No 25,000 US$ concrete bill. And this is just one of the examples of inefficiency in your "wealthy" society. What we have here is broken window fallacy and misappropriation of resources, but there's also negative wealth you create. Wealth that costs more then it ever has created. Think of all the asphalt you love to create, which creates heat island effect, which requires ACs to handle. Along all the steps of the production "wealth" is being "created".
    - mytailorisrich 3y ago
      I already called the straw man. Please don't double down on it, especially when what you wrote is not even factual.
      - boxed 3y ago
        Just FYI this is a different person that replied to you. And no, it's not a straw man. And it's not incorrect. GDP is extremely vulnerable to broken window economics. The entire US healthcare system for example. It should really be subtracted from the GDP, not added to it.
        mytailorisrich 3y ago
        Obviously I know it is not the same person (you). It is still a straw man to the point of the discussion, you are still adding to the straw man and making strange claims, which at this points make me suspect that you simply do not understand it despite the explanation or are too blinded by ideological bias. Either way, that's a 'bye' from me because there is discussion possible ("we all know this" was a big red flag). Lasty, his comment was indeed not factual because what he wrote about sidewalks in Europe is plainly BS (an I am an European).
      - namaria 3y ago
        You're building a strawman out of a red herring my friend. If you're gonna be pedantic at least get it right.
notRobot 3y ago
Why would that matter? I genuinely want to understand.

db48x 3y ago

I think it does matter, but on the other hand it is true that the folks in Mississippi are not really all that poor when considered globally.

notRobot 3y ago
Please elaborate on your position so I can understand it better.