6 ms·

>your desire potentially to join Sam Altman at Microsoft’s new AI Research Lab. Know that if needed, you have a role at Microsoft that matches your compensation

by jasode 3y ago

>your desire potentially to join Sam Altman at Microsoft’s new AI Research Lab. Know that if needed, you have a role at Microsoft that matches your compensation and advances our collective mission. The podcast This Week In Startups brought up an interesting point that many OpenAI employees are on corporate sponsored work visas and they really can't jump ship to Microsoft. Those visas are tied to OpenAI. Not sure how many employees it affects and of those, how many are "key people". (No doubt that Microsoft already understand the logistics of all this and still want to signal their open arms regardless.)

alsodumb 3y ago
Most work visas can be transferred to new companies fairly easily - it's almost trivial. I don't think thats a big deal.
- x86x87 3y ago
  Transfering? Yes, it's possible. But it's not trivial and, post trump immigration bs, there is a real possibility transfer will not go through. Also usually this takes a few weeks/months.
  - bushido 3y ago
    I read something a few days on another unrelated thread from the AMA [0] with an immigration lawyer who works with YC companies that the administration prioritizing AI-related visas. Based on that, I could see folks making exceptions/expediting the process to stop brain-drain. Link: [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38207857 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38207857 Edit - added link
    - x86x87 3y ago
      Yeah, that's fine and probably a bit easier to transfer, but it's still not a 100% sure thing and trivial to do.
  - fernandotakai 3y ago
    we are talking about a company worth over two trillion dollars. i think they can transfer visas quite easy compared to other companies.
- jasode 3y ago
  >it's almost trivial. I don't think thats a big deal. Somebody downvoted sibling comment from x86x87 but they didn't give a reason. It seems the concern for it not being trivial is supported by immigration attorneys. An example excerpt from https://banyan.law/how-risky-is-the-h-1b-transfer/ https://banyan.law/how-risky-is-the-h-1b-transfer/ : >My honest assessment is that before 2016, I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend changing jobs upon the filing of the H-1B. USCIS approved almost 100% of legitimate, well-constructed transfer petitions “back then”. >Now, it’s kind of a mess. H-1B denials have increased by 27%. Requests for Evidence (often feared as a potential denial indicator) are now issued at a 60% clip (a 40% increase). >So, I’ve changed my tune and so have many others. Many companies are now encouraging employees not to give notice until the H-1B is approved, assuming premium processing is alive. We no longer feel 100% certain that your transfer petition will be approved, and we, therefore, do not want you to bear the suddenly real risks outlined above.
  - fluidcruft 3y ago
    The before and after statistics are apples and oranges. Hard to say that says anything significant at all. And a request for evidence that OpenAI employees are top of the game and that we don't want them leaving the country is trivial. MSFT and Altman team write one response and affix it to all applications.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  H-1B transfer is not trivial, takes time to be approved, and while you can start working at the new position when the application is filed, if its then not approved you can't legally work at the new job anymore and are out of status.
  - CamperBob2 3y ago
    It will be approved. Bureaucracies don't actually like negative PR, and interfering with this would bring the roof down on them.
mynameisvlad 3y ago
Microsoft is no stranger to the visa process. Several of the visas like H1B allow transfers, albeit it will take time and effort to accomplish.
outside1234 3y ago
Microsoft will make it happen. Even if 350 people are in this situation that is nothing to the immigration arm of Microsoft.
gjsman-1000 3y ago
H-1B Visas are transferable with an application; and you can legally join a new company before the application is approved (but it’s, of course, just a little risky). I don’t think employees would expect Microsoft to drop the ball though.
- trashtester 3y ago
  At this level, MS could go to the White House and insist that keeping these people within the US is a matter of urgent national security, for the same reason there are Nvidia export restrictions to China. These are not your average groups of H1B workers.
  - belval 3y ago
    I love how people in the comments are just diregarding that simple fact. If you are "just" doing run-of-the-mill software engineering for a non-FAANG then sure look before you leap. As an employee of OpenAI, that went before congress for AI safety, jumping to Microsoft? I wouldn't be surprised if their internal immigration division already has documents stamped by high-level officials to keep those people in the country as a matter of national security. These people are not leaving the US unless they want to.
    - trashtester 3y ago
      Kicking these people out now would be like kicking out Jewish physicists (like Einstein) fleeing Germany in 1942. The race for AGI is just as critical as now as the race for the nuclear bomb was then. And probably more dangerous...
  - kamaal 3y ago
    >>These are not your average groups of H1B workers. Its strange this has to be even said. I knew doctors who got their Green cards fairly easily. Replacing these doctors is next to impossible. For starters, its just these are rarest of the rare talents. Even making such doctors is very hard because it takes decades of academic training, and practice. These are things with close to 100% drop out rate, and other requirements- which means you just have to make exceptions to have these people in.
artemonster 3y ago
The fact that work visas are tied to a concrete employer is the biggest slavery scam the US is pulling off.
- odiroot 3y ago
  Isn't this a thing everywhere? I have the same in UK.
  - zucker42 3y ago
    Many countries have immigration systems that are similarly bad the U.S.'s.
  - Pannoniae 3y ago
    That doesn't make it any less slavery
    - jkubicek 3y ago
      It's completely inappropriate to repurposes the word "slavery" for H1B visa holders. Sure, being tied to your current employer in a way that makes it hard leave is a terrible position to be in, but these folks are also well-compensated workers living comfortably in the richest nation on earth. They're free to travel anywhere in the US and are free to leave their job at any time. Actual slaves don't spend weekends wine-tasting in Napa or cutting work early to catch a Giants game.
      - HPsquared 3y ago
        I wouldn't ever be "comfortable" with that sword of Damocles hanging overhead.
        kube-system 3y ago
        Then get a job in your country of citizenship.
        3y ago
someotherperson 3y ago
Microsoft is a juggernaut from every angle that has direct ties to all arms of the U.S. government -- they can petition whatever backdoor deals they need to keep the knowledge and talent inside the U.S. rather than exporting it back overseas. They can angle it as a matter of national security without so much as a hint of difficulty. Any visa issues will be resolved within a matter of days, not even weeks or months.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Yes, very much this. The rules are different when you are a >$1T company. You have Congresspeople on speed dial. Also, the Biden administration know what is at stake with their AI Executive Order. It will get done.
  - kamaal 3y ago
    You don't even have to be a $1T company. Your body shops and outsourcing firm managers buy Green cards for their pets at office all the time. Of all the things, Visas/GCs are the least of the issues here. Think of it like a joining bonus for their immigrant employees.
    - davidgay 3y ago
      As someone actually on a green card, working at one large tech company and previously at another where I got the card (both in the same range of importance as Microsoft), and having seen various colleagues go through various issues: no, it really does not work that way. For instance, my card was delayed for something like 2 years, because anything immigration related was extremely slow in 2002... The main benefit you get is good quality lawyers who make sure you do the process the right way.
      - kridsdale3 3y ago
        Everyone at Meta in the queue for PERM status was put on pause in the system for about 4 years because President Trump was angry with Zuckerberg.
bannedbybros 3y ago
[dead]
John23832 3y ago
Microsoft, the large american tech giant, is trying to save a 10B dollar investment from boneheads who just blew up the company they invested in. Do you really think they're going to feign an offer to join, but then say "oh your immigration status is too complex"? With all of their resources?
makestuff 3y ago
> that matches your compensation That is going to go over well with current microsoft employees.
- shmatt 3y ago
  0% raise and lower bonus pool in 2023 for Satyas engineers then the $1M-$2M/year OpenAI folks who never built a profitable product enter the building
  - coliveira 3y ago
    Well, this is hardly ever the first time this happens at Microsoft. The veterans are probably already used to it.
  - makestuff 3y ago
    All time high stock though... If it wasn't such a PITA to prep for interviews I think companies would have to give out better raises to current employees to avoid mass attrition. My conspiracy theory is that companies keep using leetcode style interviews because they know people don't want to study for them which makes them less likely to change jobs for more money.
    - kridsdale3 3y ago
      Now you see why FAANG interviews are so onerous.
- kelipso 3y ago
  It's sounding more and more like a bluff. Everyone at Microsoft Research has to be seething at this.
  - cnlwsu 3y ago
    Why? Hiring a bunch of great engineers with relevant experience usually goes over well in teams I been in.
kamaal 3y ago
Hmm, As some body who has watched the Visa thing from quite close quarters and lost, but saw others win. Let me tell you something. Getting a Green card is something your company can make it happen if they wanted to. Its just how much money they can spend to cook up documentation to justify your case. A competent immigration attorney, can get you GC in a year if the company was ready to pay for it. OTOH if you go in the normal EB1 lane it could take an eternity to get one, because now the pleb rules apply to you. Or worse if your bosses won't support you, you likely will not even complete the Visa time. So its really what the top people say will happen in these cases. If you are important enough that you have to be there, for a company like Microsoft, these are some what like the cash they spend on food stocked in the floor pantry/kitchen areas. They will just buy you a Green card.
erehweb 3y ago
Commenters raising visa issues, but saying that these will be not a problem due to national security. It's certainly very favorable, but I don't know I'd say it's 100%, given bitter divisions in government and recent trouble with filling military positions due to Tuberville. Presumably the administration would have to spend some political capital to do this. Would they? I think so, but would not bet at 100%.
- John23832 3y ago
  ICE is a part of the executive branch. There is no Congressional issue.
sashank_1509 3y ago
Nope this makes no sense and I say this as someone on a corporate sponsored visa. There are primarily 2 visas. The first most common is H1b, H1b transfers are some of the easiest things to do. I have moved from a trillion dollar company to a 3 person company on a H1b transfer. The company just needs a lawyer to do the paperwork and prove they are a company. The next visa is O1. O1 visa allows transfer only if you work in the same field/ goal as your original visa. In this case it is straightforward, since they are doing literally the same job in a different company. Microsoft applied for thousands of visas a year, there really is no issue here regarding visas except immigrant employee anxiety.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Ballas 3y ago
Yeah, if they are employees of the non-profit it could be an issue, because they could be on visas that cannot transfer to a for-profit entity. If they are on something like H1b, then that should not be an issue AFAIK.

by jasode 3y ago

alsodumb 3y ago

Most work visas can be transferred to new companies fairly easily - it's almost trivial. I don't think thats a big deal.

x86x87 3y ago
Transfering? Yes, it's possible. But it's not trivial and, post trump immigration bs, there is a real possibility transfer will not go through. Also usually this takes a few weeks/months.
- bushido 3y ago
  I read something a few days on another unrelated thread from the AMA [0] with an immigration lawyer who works with YC companies that the administration prioritizing AI-related visas. Based on that, I could see folks making exceptions/expediting the process to stop brain-drain. Link: [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38207857 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38207857 Edit - added link
  - x86x87 3y ago
    Yeah, that's fine and probably a bit easier to transfer, but it's still not a 100% sure thing and trivial to do.
- fernandotakai 3y ago
  we are talking about a company worth over two trillion dollars. i think they can transfer visas quite easy compared to other companies.
jasode 3y ago
>it's almost trivial. I don't think thats a big deal. Somebody downvoted sibling comment from x86x87 but they didn't give a reason. It seems the concern for it not being trivial is supported by immigration attorneys. An example excerpt from https://banyan.law/how-risky-is-the-h-1b-transfer/ https://banyan.law/how-risky-is-the-h-1b-transfer/ : >My honest assessment is that before 2016, I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend changing jobs upon the filing of the H-1B. USCIS approved almost 100% of legitimate, well-constructed transfer petitions “back then”. >Now, it’s kind of a mess. H-1B denials have increased by 27%. Requests for Evidence (often feared as a potential denial indicator) are now issued at a 60% clip (a 40% increase). >So, I’ve changed my tune and so have many others. Many companies are now encouraging employees not to give notice until the H-1B is approved, assuming premium processing is alive. We no longer feel 100% certain that your transfer petition will be approved, and we, therefore, do not want you to bear the suddenly real risks outlined above.
- fluidcruft 3y ago
  The before and after statistics are apples and oranges. Hard to say that says anything significant at all. And a request for evidence that OpenAI employees are top of the game and that we don't want them leaving the country is trivial. MSFT and Altman team write one response and affix it to all applications.
dragonwriter 3y ago
H-1B transfer is not trivial, takes time to be approved, and while you can start working at the new position when the application is filed, if its then not approved you can't legally work at the new job anymore and are out of status.
- CamperBob2 3y ago
  It will be approved. Bureaucracies don't actually like negative PR, and interfering with this would bring the roof down on them.

mynameisvlad 3y ago

Microsoft is no stranger to the visa process. Several of the visas like H1B allow transfers, albeit it will take time and effort to accomplish.

outside1234 3y ago

Microsoft will make it happen. Even if 350 people are in this situation that is nothing to the immigration arm of Microsoft.

gjsman-1000 3y ago

H-1B Visas are transferable with an application; and you can legally join a new company before the application is approved (but it’s, of course, just a little risky). I don’t think employees would expect Microsoft to drop the ball though.

trashtester 3y ago
At this level, MS could go to the White House and insist that keeping these people within the US is a matter of urgent national security, for the same reason there are Nvidia export restrictions to China. These are not your average groups of H1B workers.
- belval 3y ago
  I love how people in the comments are just diregarding that simple fact. If you are "just" doing run-of-the-mill software engineering for a non-FAANG then sure look before you leap. As an employee of OpenAI, that went before congress for AI safety, jumping to Microsoft? I wouldn't be surprised if their internal immigration division already has documents stamped by high-level officials to keep those people in the country as a matter of national security. These people are not leaving the US unless they want to.
  - trashtester 3y ago
    Kicking these people out now would be like kicking out Jewish physicists (like Einstein) fleeing Germany in 1942. The race for AGI is just as critical as now as the race for the nuclear bomb was then. And probably more dangerous...
- kamaal 3y ago
  >>These are not your average groups of H1B workers. Its strange this has to be even said. I knew doctors who got their Green cards fairly easily. Replacing these doctors is next to impossible. For starters, its just these are rarest of the rare talents. Even making such doctors is very hard because it takes decades of academic training, and practice. These are things with close to 100% drop out rate, and other requirements- which means you just have to make exceptions to have these people in.

artemonster 3y ago

The fact that work visas are tied to a concrete employer is the biggest slavery scam the US is pulling off.

odiroot 3y ago
Isn't this a thing everywhere? I have the same in UK.
- zucker42 3y ago
  Many countries have immigration systems that are similarly bad the U.S.'s.
- Pannoniae 3y ago
  That doesn't make it any less slavery
  - jkubicek 3y ago
    It's completely inappropriate to repurposes the word "slavery" for H1B visa holders. Sure, being tied to your current employer in a way that makes it hard leave is a terrible position to be in, but these folks are also well-compensated workers living comfortably in the richest nation on earth. They're free to travel anywhere in the US and are free to leave their job at any time. Actual slaves don't spend weekends wine-tasting in Napa or cutting work early to catch a Giants game.
    - HPsquared 3y ago
      I wouldn't ever be "comfortable" with that sword of Damocles hanging overhead.
      - kube-system 3y ago
        Then get a job in your country of citizenship.
      - 3y ago

someotherperson 3y ago

Microsoft is a juggernaut from every angle that has direct ties to all arms of the U.S. government -- they can petition whatever backdoor deals they need to keep the knowledge and talent inside the U.S. rather than exporting it back overseas. They can angle it as a matter of national security without so much as a hint of difficulty. Any visa issues will be resolved within a matter of days, not even weeks or months.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Yes, very much this. The rules are different when you are a >$1T company. You have Congresspeople on speed dial. Also, the Biden administration know what is at stake with their AI Executive Order. It will get done.
- kamaal 3y ago
  You don't even have to be a $1T company. Your body shops and outsourcing firm managers buy Green cards for their pets at office all the time. Of all the things, Visas/GCs are the least of the issues here. Think of it like a joining bonus for their immigrant employees.
  - davidgay 3y ago
    As someone actually on a green card, working at one large tech company and previously at another where I got the card (both in the same range of importance as Microsoft), and having seen various colleagues go through various issues: no, it really does not work that way. For instance, my card was delayed for something like 2 years, because anything immigration related was extremely slow in 2002... The main benefit you get is good quality lawyers who make sure you do the process the right way.
    - kridsdale3 3y ago
      Everyone at Meta in the queue for PERM status was put on pause in the system for about 4 years because President Trump was angry with Zuckerberg.

bannedbybros 3y ago

[dead]

John23832 3y ago

Microsoft, the large american tech giant, is trying to save a 10B dollar investment from boneheads who just blew up the company they invested in. Do you really think they're going to feign an offer to join, but then say "oh your immigration status is too complex"? With all of their resources?

makestuff 3y ago

> that matches your compensation That is going to go over well with current microsoft employees.

shmatt 3y ago
0% raise and lower bonus pool in 2023 for Satyas engineers then the $1M-$2M/year OpenAI folks who never built a profitable product enter the building
- coliveira 3y ago
  Well, this is hardly ever the first time this happens at Microsoft. The veterans are probably already used to it.
- makestuff 3y ago
  All time high stock though... If it wasn't such a PITA to prep for interviews I think companies would have to give out better raises to current employees to avoid mass attrition. My conspiracy theory is that companies keep using leetcode style interviews because they know people don't want to study for them which makes them less likely to change jobs for more money.
  - kridsdale3 3y ago
    Now you see why FAANG interviews are so onerous.
kelipso 3y ago
It's sounding more and more like a bluff. Everyone at Microsoft Research has to be seething at this.
- cnlwsu 3y ago
  Why? Hiring a bunch of great engineers with relevant experience usually goes over well in teams I been in.

kamaal 3y ago

Hmm, As some body who has watched the Visa thing from quite close quarters and lost, but saw others win. Let me tell you something. Getting a Green card is something your company can make it happen if they wanted to. Its just how much money they can spend to cook up documentation to justify your case. A competent immigration attorney, can get you GC in a year if the company was ready to pay for it. OTOH if you go in the normal EB1 lane it could take an eternity to get one, because now the pleb rules apply to you. Or worse if your bosses won't support you, you likely will not even complete the Visa time. So its really what the top people say will happen in these cases. If you are important enough that you have to be there, for a company like Microsoft, these are some what like the cash they spend on food stocked in the floor pantry/kitchen areas. They will just buy you a Green card.

erehweb 3y ago

Commenters raising visa issues, but saying that these will be not a problem due to national security. It's certainly very favorable, but I don't know I'd say it's 100%, given bitter divisions in government and recent trouble with filling military positions due to Tuberville. Presumably the administration would have to spend some political capital to do this. Would they? I think so, but would not bet at 100%.

John23832 3y ago
ICE is a part of the executive branch. There is no Congressional issue.

sashank_1509 3y ago

Nope this makes no sense and I say this as someone on a corporate sponsored visa. There are primarily 2 visas. The first most common is H1b, H1b transfers are some of the easiest things to do. I have moved from a trillion dollar company to a 3 person company on a H1b transfer. The company just needs a lawyer to do the paperwork and prove they are a company. The next visa is O1. O1 visa allows transfer only if you work in the same field/ goal as your original visa. In this case it is straightforward, since they are doing literally the same job in a different company. Microsoft applied for thousands of visas a year, there really is no issue here regarding visas except immigrant employee anxiety.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Ballas 3y ago

Yeah, if they are employees of the non-profit it could be an issue, because they could be on visas that cannot transfer to a for-profit entity. If they are on something like H1b, then that should not be an issue AFAIK.