4 ms·

There is a simple solution: allow people to report a crime in an area that is not open to the public. It’s pretty clear that the right to record does not exten

There is a simple solution: allow people to report a crime in an area that is not open to the public. It’s pretty clear that the right to record does not extend into the “restricted” area of the station. There is no law that says a report must be made in public, the NYPD could easily make any number of avenues available. Phone reporting, web reporting, sending an officer to collect a report, and offering a private area in the station are all options that cost them nothing.

tareqak 3y ago
Except New York State law allows for that with no exceptions. From the article: > But there’s something far more local and specific that says the NYPD can’t do this: state law. >> The Right to Record Acts allow for the recording of “law enforcement activity” and “police activities.” Defendant does not dispute that officers interacting with civilians in a police precinct are performing law enforcement or police activities. The Right to Record Acts do not carve out police precinct lobbies as places where individuals are not allowed to record and the Court declines to read that limitation into the Right to Record Acts. Citing to both Right toRecord Acts, the NYPD Legal Bureau Bulletin acknowledges that the right to record police activity “is codified in New York State and local law and extends to those individuals in both public places, such as streets, sidewalks, and parks, as well as private property such as a building, lobby, workplace, or an individual’s own property.” NYPD Legal Bureau Bulletin at 3 (emphasis in original).
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  Yes. It allows individuals to film police activity at all times. But there is also the restriction that he doesn’t have a right to be in restricted areas. So the solution is still the same, and still very simple. Allow people to make police reports in restricted areas, away from people filming, if they wish.
  - pc86 3y ago
    The whole point is you can't do that because then de facto that police activity cannot be recorded in direct violation of state law. The solution is to clarify in state law that police activities in public can be recorded, and to specifically enumerate what police activities are allowed to occur outside of public eye, which should probably be limited to victim statements at the express request of the victim.
    - Pigalowda 3y ago
      What if they put a toilet and a sink in the room? Maybe they can report in that room without cameras
    - Zak 3y ago
      The text of the law[0] is definitely a bit vague with regard to whether inviting the victim of a crime into a private interview room and denying access to others would qualify as "interfering" with recording. I'm inclined to think that a judge considering the totality of the circumstances would conclude that it does not. [0] http://web.archive.org/web/20231012035050/https://legislation.nysenate.gov/pdf/bills/2019/S3253A http://web.archive.org/web/20231012035050/https://legislatio...
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > point is you can't do that because then de facto that police activity cannot be recorded in direct violation of state law This is an obviously absurd reading of the law. Police executing a search warrant doesn’t mean any rando can now enter that home and start recording. It means the people with access to that area have the right to record. In public, that’s anyone. In a restricted area that’s not.
    - dghlsakjg 3y ago
      You’re making this harder than it needs to be. If you are in an area not open to the public, you can be told to leave regardless of whether you are filming. If you fail to leave, then you are trespassing. The fact of trespassing will override other rights. For example: you have the right of free speech. You don’t have the right to hold a protest inside of a Walmart. They can have the police remove you despite the fact that it infringes on your speech. They can’t stop you from filming, but they can stop you from going to private places where they don’t want you to film.
  - tareqak 3y ago
    If a restricted area is in full view from a public area, then which area “loses”/gets demoted? In the case of a restricted area now becoming public because it is adjacent to a public area with no barriers, the participants and activities that requires whatever benefit afforded by the restriction lose e.g. privacy. In the case of a public area now adjacent to a restricted area in turn becoming restricted, then this method now becomes a way to close public areas and activities allowed in those areas on a whim e.g. the police playing copyrighted music when being recorded in an effort to get any uploads to YouTube being struck down by a DMCA copyright notice.
    - dghlsakjg 3y ago
      This is already been ruled on in regards to the first amendment. If you can plainly see it from public, it’s considered public. For example if I can see into your living room from the public sidewalk, it is legal for me to look/record. There is a lot of nuance beyond that as well, but largely that is the way it works.
kolanos 3y ago
Also, the claim that someone video recording in a public space is automatically an agitator falls apart quickly when you realize that police officers walk around with body worn cameras all the time. Are they then agitators that have no business in a police precinct lobby? And before you answer with "that's their job", be aware that the video they record on their body cams is public record in most U.S. states and can be requested and disseminated to the public by anyone for any reason. There is no expectation of privacy in public, and this holds true in a public lobby of a police precinct. Privacy must be created, as such, if someone comes in to report a crime, the reasonable thing to do is to have the officer on duty take that person to a private room to make their report.
- zie 3y ago
  Unfortunately as often is the case, the important moments that matter somehow forget to be recorded. It's pretty rare that we see the cops being recorded breaking the law on their own body cameras, despite those body cameras supposedly being "always on", even after we know they broke the law some other way(like being recorded by third-parties, etc). It would be really interesting to know how often body cams are catching these things, the best I could find is via the LAPD: "Of 37 police shootings that have gone before the civilian commission over the last year, 25 cases had some type of body camera violation by officers who were considered to be substantially involved, the Times review found." -https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-09-21/internal-lapd-reports-show-body-cam-misuse-issue-more-widespread-than-chief-alleges https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-09-21/internal... So terribly, which isn't surprising, but is very sad for humanity.
JohnFen 3y ago
> allow people to report a crime in an area that is not open to the public. And how are people supposed to get to that area without passing by some jerk with a camera?
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  They can’t in any possible way, unless they can do it without traveling in public. The right to film in public is a first amendment thing. This law just codifies it and specifies that public areas of public buildings are areas where filming is allowed. Hence why I suggested sending an officer, or allowing reporting remotely via phone and web. Which, of course, are all ways that the NYPD accepts reports.

tareqak 3y ago

Except New York State law allows for that with no exceptions. From the article: > But there’s something far more local and specific that says the NYPD can’t do this: state law. >> The Right to Record Acts allow for the recording of “law enforcement activity” and “police activities.” Defendant does not dispute that officers interacting with civilians in a police precinct are performing law enforcement or police activities. The Right to Record Acts do not carve out police precinct lobbies as places where individuals are not allowed to record and the Court declines to read that limitation into the Right to Record Acts. Citing to both Right toRecord Acts, the NYPD Legal Bureau Bulletin acknowledges that the right to record police activity “is codified in New York State and local law and extends to those individuals in both public places, such as streets, sidewalks, and parks, as well as private property such as a building, lobby, workplace, or an individual’s own property.” NYPD Legal Bureau Bulletin at 3 (emphasis in original).

dghlsakjg 3y ago
Yes. It allows individuals to film police activity at all times. But there is also the restriction that he doesn’t have a right to be in restricted areas. So the solution is still the same, and still very simple. Allow people to make police reports in restricted areas, away from people filming, if they wish.
- pc86 3y ago
  The whole point is you can't do that because then de facto that police activity cannot be recorded in direct violation of state law. The solution is to clarify in state law that police activities in public can be recorded, and to specifically enumerate what police activities are allowed to occur outside of public eye, which should probably be limited to victim statements at the express request of the victim.
  - Pigalowda 3y ago
    What if they put a toilet and a sink in the room? Maybe they can report in that room without cameras
  - Zak 3y ago
    The text of the law[0] is definitely a bit vague with regard to whether inviting the victim of a crime into a private interview room and denying access to others would qualify as "interfering" with recording. I'm inclined to think that a judge considering the totality of the circumstances would conclude that it does not. [0] http://web.archive.org/web/20231012035050/https://legislation.nysenate.gov/pdf/bills/2019/S3253A http://web.archive.org/web/20231012035050/https://legislatio...
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > point is you can't do that because then de facto that police activity cannot be recorded in direct violation of state law This is an obviously absurd reading of the law. Police executing a search warrant doesn’t mean any rando can now enter that home and start recording. It means the people with access to that area have the right to record. In public, that’s anyone. In a restricted area that’s not.
  - dghlsakjg 3y ago
    You’re making this harder than it needs to be. If you are in an area not open to the public, you can be told to leave regardless of whether you are filming. If you fail to leave, then you are trespassing. The fact of trespassing will override other rights. For example: you have the right of free speech. You don’t have the right to hold a protest inside of a Walmart. They can have the police remove you despite the fact that it infringes on your speech. They can’t stop you from filming, but they can stop you from going to private places where they don’t want you to film.
- tareqak 3y ago
  If a restricted area is in full view from a public area, then which area “loses”/gets demoted? In the case of a restricted area now becoming public because it is adjacent to a public area with no barriers, the participants and activities that requires whatever benefit afforded by the restriction lose e.g. privacy. In the case of a public area now adjacent to a restricted area in turn becoming restricted, then this method now becomes a way to close public areas and activities allowed in those areas on a whim e.g. the police playing copyrighted music when being recorded in an effort to get any uploads to YouTube being struck down by a DMCA copyright notice.
  - dghlsakjg 3y ago
    This is already been ruled on in regards to the first amendment. If you can plainly see it from public, it’s considered public. For example if I can see into your living room from the public sidewalk, it is legal for me to look/record. There is a lot of nuance beyond that as well, but largely that is the way it works.

kolanos 3y ago

Also, the claim that someone video recording in a public space is automatically an agitator falls apart quickly when you realize that police officers walk around with body worn cameras all the time. Are they then agitators that have no business in a police precinct lobby? And before you answer with "that's their job", be aware that the video they record on their body cams is public record in most U.S. states and can be requested and disseminated to the public by anyone for any reason. There is no expectation of privacy in public, and this holds true in a public lobby of a police precinct. Privacy must be created, as such, if someone comes in to report a crime, the reasonable thing to do is to have the officer on duty take that person to a private room to make their report.

zie 3y ago
Unfortunately as often is the case, the important moments that matter somehow forget to be recorded. It's pretty rare that we see the cops being recorded breaking the law on their own body cameras, despite those body cameras supposedly being "always on", even after we know they broke the law some other way(like being recorded by third-parties, etc). It would be really interesting to know how often body cams are catching these things, the best I could find is via the LAPD: "Of 37 police shootings that have gone before the civilian commission over the last year, 25 cases had some type of body camera violation by officers who were considered to be substantially involved, the Times review found." -https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-09-21/internal-lapd-reports-show-body-cam-misuse-issue-more-widespread-than-chief-alleges https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-09-21/internal... So terribly, which isn't surprising, but is very sad for humanity.

JohnFen 3y ago

> allow people to report a crime in an area that is not open to the public. And how are people supposed to get to that area without passing by some jerk with a camera?

dghlsakjg 3y ago
They can’t in any possible way, unless they can do it without traveling in public. The right to film in public is a first amendment thing. This law just codifies it and specifies that public areas of public buildings are areas where filming is allowed. Hence why I suggested sending an officer, or allowing reporting remotely via phone and web. Which, of course, are all ways that the NYPD accepts reports.