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Apple is almost certainly aware of this at the C-Suite level; I wouldn’t even be surprised if Tim Cook were briefed. Had Apple pulled Sunbird’s access to iMess

by leoh 3y ago

Apple is almost certainly aware of this at the C-Suite level; I wouldn’t even be surprised if Tim Cook were briefed. Had Apple pulled Sunbird’s access to iMessage before information about their shoddy security coming out via third-party, they would have run the risk of playing into Google’s narrative about Apple being petty about their closed standard. Here’s what I think (and hope) will happen: * Apple will revoke Sunbird’s access and/or will sue them; they can almost certainly detect them via fingerprinting and other techniques * Apple will take steps to further protect the iMessage standard The interesting thing here is that Sunbird’s marketing and PR execution, at a casual glance, appear to be as impressive as their engineering implementation dismal, thereby suggesting the usefulness of cautious maneuvering by Apple. Google Cloud would ideally have a role in protecting users here, too; ie blocking Sunbird from its platform on account of exposing users to such formidable risk while so blatantly misrepresenting their security posture. Apple could implore Google to consider, which could look good for GCP; while extending a mutual commitment to implementing RCS together in the interest of users at a moment when skepticism of large tech is at an all-time high.

UltimateEdge 3y ago
> Apple is almost certainly aware of this at the C-Suite level What makes you think this?
- 63 3y ago
  iMessage is one of the primary moats keeping a lot of people on iPhone. I'm not necessarily as sure as the parent comment that the c-suite was briefed or anything, but I do think that iMessage exclusivity is pretty important to Apple
  - hbn 3y ago
    The risk here has never gotten near a point of being about Sunbird slowing down iPhone sales by allowing iMessage on Android. Beeper already has been doing a workaround for sending iMessages from other platforms for a while. The issue is Sunbird's shoddy implementation in particular compromising the security of a bunch of their users' accounts, with a real Android OEM vouching for their service and shipping it on their new phone, giving Sunbird a big publicity boost in the process.
  - chrisandchris 3y ago
    That's probably a fact, and still a very interesting fact because it seems mostly US-related. In central europe, not tha many people use iMessage or even know that it exists.
  - dontlaugh 3y ago
    Outside the US it's rarely used, I doubt they care that much.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    The funny thing is that exclusivity would have been broken by the digital markets act if it actually were a moat here in Europe. But it's not, nobody cares about iMessage here. Even iOS users.
  - toyg 3y ago
    iMessage is a relic, most people in Europe use WhatsApp and alternatives in other continents. The whole blue/green thing is just Apple-driven hype to remember folks that iMessage even exists.
    - qubitcoder 3y ago
      This is not the case. WhatsApp is only prevalent outside the United States and doesn't compare to iMessage in terms of features, privacy, security, long-term storage of messages and media, etc.
    - averageRoyalty 3y ago
      As an Australian, you're wrong. The "blue/green" is US media driven clickbait, but iMessage is prevelant in many countries I've been to.
kevincox 3y ago
> Apple will revoke Sunbird’s access How do your expect that they will do this? IIUC they are basically logging in to real Apple hardware with the users credentials. There is nothing concrete that can be used to identify these sessions. (Obviously things like shared IPs, reused machines and other patterns can be used, but these aren't 100% accurate). That being said it surprises me that this can be profitable. If they run multiple users on the same hardware they risk being banned pretty quickly. In theory they can reuse hardware after user churn but that can probably be done a limited number of times. Is old used Apple hardware just so cheap that they can buy them then resell for a reasonable cost?
- kergonath 3y ago
  Considering their security practices, I would bet that they virtualised macOS more or less legally and hoped nobody would look too closely.
  - kevincox 3y ago
    Sounds like if you were running more than a couple of customers on the same hardware it would be easy for Apple to swat you. Since IIRC iMessage is authenticated with device keys so all VMs on the device would share the same key. Maybe they are betting that A) Apple doesn't care enough B) They aren't technically breaking any rules C) Enough "real" people do have multiple VMs signed into iMessage that they don't stand out enough to get blocked.
    - kergonath 3y ago
      I entirely agree. > Maybe they are betting that A) Apple doesn't care enough B) They aren't technically breaking any rules C) Enough "real" people do have multiple VMs signed into iMessage that they don't stand out enough to get blocked. We seem to get a scam startup à la Psystar every couple of years. Some of them seem to believe that they’re too small and not worth Apple’s lawyers’ time, and other seem to be convinced that they are within their rights and Apple an evil monopolist.
sofixa 3y ago
> Had Apple pulled Sunbird’s access to iMessage before information about their shoddy security coming out via third-party, they would have run the risk of playing into Google’s narrative about Apple being petty about their closed standard. It's not "Google's narrative" (which makes it sound like it's not true), it's the truth and abusing a monopoly, that is being investigated by the EU. We're expecting an EU decision soon if Apple are a gatekeeper with iMessage (as per the DMA/DSA), which they almost certainly are. If that is indeed the case, they'll be forced to open it to competitors anyways. So the whole thing is moot - see also Apple starting to finally adopt RCS, probably trying to anticipate EU regulations and spin them being forced to do the correct thing as "innovation".
- averageRoyalty 3y ago
  It's a bizare mindset. Facebook, WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram - none of them are forced to be interoperable. If I build a messaging protocol, there's no requirement for it to be interoperable. Apple does not hold a majority market share in most of the world. Where is this monopoly, and why should they be forced to share the fruit of their labours?
  - sofixa 3y ago
    > Facebook, WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram - none of them are forced to be interoperable Facebook and WhatsApp probably will be forced to be interoperable too. > If I build a messaging protocol, there's no requirement for it to be interoperable. None, but it's the decent thing to do. And since corporations are often incapable of doing the decent thing, they have to be forced. > Apple does not hold a majority market share in most of the world. Where is this monopoly, and why should they be forced to share the fruit of their labours? You're approaching this from an American "if it's not an absolute 99.99%+ monopoly it's fine", instead of the EU "do they have a portion of the market so big they can distort it and prevent competition and thus hurt consumers". Apple are absolutely hurting consumers with their abusive practices, regardless if their share of phone sales is 30% of 60%. So they will be forced to adapt common standards (USB C), open up their walled gardens, etc.

by leoh 3y ago

UltimateEdge 3y ago

> Apple is almost certainly aware of this at the C-Suite level What makes you think this?

63 3y ago
iMessage is one of the primary moats keeping a lot of people on iPhone. I'm not necessarily as sure as the parent comment that the c-suite was briefed or anything, but I do think that iMessage exclusivity is pretty important to Apple
- hbn 3y ago
  The risk here has never gotten near a point of being about Sunbird slowing down iPhone sales by allowing iMessage on Android. Beeper already has been doing a workaround for sending iMessages from other platforms for a while. The issue is Sunbird's shoddy implementation in particular compromising the security of a bunch of their users' accounts, with a real Android OEM vouching for their service and shipping it on their new phone, giving Sunbird a big publicity boost in the process.
- chrisandchris 3y ago
  That's probably a fact, and still a very interesting fact because it seems mostly US-related. In central europe, not tha many people use iMessage or even know that it exists.
- dontlaugh 3y ago
  Outside the US it's rarely used, I doubt they care that much.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  The funny thing is that exclusivity would have been broken by the digital markets act if it actually were a moat here in Europe. But it's not, nobody cares about iMessage here. Even iOS users.
- toyg 3y ago
  iMessage is a relic, most people in Europe use WhatsApp and alternatives in other continents. The whole blue/green thing is just Apple-driven hype to remember folks that iMessage even exists.
  - qubitcoder 3y ago
    This is not the case. WhatsApp is only prevalent outside the United States and doesn't compare to iMessage in terms of features, privacy, security, long-term storage of messages and media, etc.
  - averageRoyalty 3y ago
    As an Australian, you're wrong. The "blue/green" is US media driven clickbait, but iMessage is prevelant in many countries I've been to.

kevincox 3y ago

> Apple will revoke Sunbird’s access How do your expect that they will do this? IIUC they are basically logging in to real Apple hardware with the users credentials. There is nothing concrete that can be used to identify these sessions. (Obviously things like shared IPs, reused machines and other patterns can be used, but these aren't 100% accurate). That being said it surprises me that this can be profitable. If they run multiple users on the same hardware they risk being banned pretty quickly. In theory they can reuse hardware after user churn but that can probably be done a limited number of times. Is old used Apple hardware just so cheap that they can buy them then resell for a reasonable cost?

kergonath 3y ago
Considering their security practices, I would bet that they virtualised macOS more or less legally and hoped nobody would look too closely.
- kevincox 3y ago
  Sounds like if you were running more than a couple of customers on the same hardware it would be easy for Apple to swat you. Since IIRC iMessage is authenticated with device keys so all VMs on the device would share the same key. Maybe they are betting that A) Apple doesn't care enough B) They aren't technically breaking any rules C) Enough "real" people do have multiple VMs signed into iMessage that they don't stand out enough to get blocked.
  - kergonath 3y ago
    I entirely agree. > Maybe they are betting that A) Apple doesn't care enough B) They aren't technically breaking any rules C) Enough "real" people do have multiple VMs signed into iMessage that they don't stand out enough to get blocked. We seem to get a scam startup à la Psystar every couple of years. Some of them seem to believe that they’re too small and not worth Apple’s lawyers’ time, and other seem to be convinced that they are within their rights and Apple an evil monopolist.

sofixa 3y ago

> Had Apple pulled Sunbird’s access to iMessage before information about their shoddy security coming out via third-party, they would have run the risk of playing into Google’s narrative about Apple being petty about their closed standard. It's not "Google's narrative" (which makes it sound like it's not true), it's the truth and abusing a monopoly, that is being investigated by the EU. We're expecting an EU decision soon if Apple are a gatekeeper with iMessage (as per the DMA/DSA), which they almost certainly are. If that is indeed the case, they'll be forced to open it to competitors anyways. So the whole thing is moot - see also Apple starting to finally adopt RCS, probably trying to anticipate EU regulations and spin them being forced to do the correct thing as "innovation".

averageRoyalty 3y ago
It's a bizare mindset. Facebook, WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram - none of them are forced to be interoperable. If I build a messaging protocol, there's no requirement for it to be interoperable. Apple does not hold a majority market share in most of the world. Where is this monopoly, and why should they be forced to share the fruit of their labours?
- sofixa 3y ago
  > Facebook, WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram - none of them are forced to be interoperable Facebook and WhatsApp probably will be forced to be interoperable too. > If I build a messaging protocol, there's no requirement for it to be interoperable. None, but it's the decent thing to do. And since corporations are often incapable of doing the decent thing, they have to be forced. > Apple does not hold a majority market share in most of the world. Where is this monopoly, and why should they be forced to share the fruit of their labours? You're approaching this from an American "if it's not an absolute 99.99%+ monopoly it's fine", instead of the EU "do they have a portion of the market so big they can distort it and prevent competition and thus hurt consumers". Apple are absolutely hurting consumers with their abusive practices, regardless if their share of phone sales is 30% of 60%. So they will be forced to adapt common standards (USB C), open up their walled gardens, etc.