4 ms·

> New rich people come along and some rich people get poor This is an overly simplistic look, and disregards a lot of history where, unsurprisingly, the reason

by aylmao 3y ago

> New rich people come along and some rich people get poor This is an overly simplistic look, and disregards a lot of history where, unsurprisingly, the reason there was wealth redistribution wasn't "innovation" but government policy

robertlagrant 3y ago
> This is an overly simplistic look, and disregards a lot of history where, unsurprisingly, the reason there was wealth redistribution wasn't "innovation" but government policy The point is that wealth and power aren't interchangeable. You're right that government bureaucrats have actual power, including that to take people's stuff. But you've not realised that that actual power means the rich people don't have power. There were rich people in the USSR that were killed. They had no power; the killers had the power in that situation.
- whelp_24 3y ago
  Wealth is control of resources, which is power. The way to change power is through force that's why you need swords to remove kings and to remove stacks of gold, see assinations, war, the U.S..
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    You need swords to remove kings because they combined power and economy. All potential tyrannies do so: monarchy, socialism, fascism, etc. That's why separating power into the state and economy into the market gets good results.
    - whelp_24 3y ago
      The separation is impossible, if you don't control the resources, you don't control the country. >separating power into the state and economy into the market gets good results. How do you think this would be done? How do you remove power from money? Money is literally the ability to convert numbers into labor, land, food,
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        Power is things like: can lock someone in a box due to them not giving a percentage of their income; can send someone to die in another country; can stop someone building somewhere; can demand someone's money as a penalty for an infraction of a rule you wrote. You don't need money for those things. Money (in a market) can buy you things, but only things people are willing to sell. You don't exert power; you exchange value.
        whelp_24 3y ago
        Money can and does do all of those things. Through regulatory capture, rent seeking, even just good old hiring goons. The government itself uses money to do those things. Police don't work for free, prisons aren't built for free, guns aren't free. The government can be thought of as having unfathomable amounts of money. The assets of a country includes the entire country (less anyone with enough money to defend it). If a sword is kinetic energy, money is potential energy. It is a battery that only needs to be connected to the right place to be devastating. And money can buy you someone who knows the right place. Governments have power because they have resources (money) not the other way around.
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        > Through regulatory capture, rent seeking, even just good old hiring goons. Regulatory capture is using the state's power. The state is the one with the power. Rent seeking is the same. Hiring goons is illegal. If you're willing to include illegal things then all bets are off. But from your list of non-illegal things, 100% of them are the state using its power to wrong ends. > The government itself uses money to do those things. Police don't work for free, prisons aren't built for free, guns aren't free. Yes, but the point about power is the state has the right to lock you up. How it pays the guards is immaterial; they could be paid with potatoes and it'd still have the right. They could just be paid in "we won't lock you up if you lock them up". However, if Bill Gates wants to publicly set up a prison in the USA and lock people in it, he will go to jail. His money doesn't buy that power. So, no. The state doesn't have power because it has enough money to pay for a prison and someone to throw you in it. People with money can't do what the state does.
- thiagoharry 3y ago
  > There were rich people in the USSR that were killed. They had no power Precisely, they were not a capitalist society, where capital (and not simply "money" as you said) is source of power, like in capitalist societies.

by aylmao 3y ago

robertlagrant 3y ago

> This is an overly simplistic look, and disregards a lot of history where, unsurprisingly, the reason there was wealth redistribution wasn't "innovation" but government policy The point is that wealth and power aren't interchangeable. You're right that government bureaucrats have actual power, including that to take people's stuff. But you've not realised that that actual power means the rich people don't have power. There were rich people in the USSR that were killed. They had no power; the killers had the power in that situation.

whelp_24 3y ago
Wealth is control of resources, which is power. The way to change power is through force that's why you need swords to remove kings and to remove stacks of gold, see assinations, war, the U.S..
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  You need swords to remove kings because they combined power and economy. All potential tyrannies do so: monarchy, socialism, fascism, etc. That's why separating power into the state and economy into the market gets good results.
  - whelp_24 3y ago
    The separation is impossible, if you don't control the resources, you don't control the country. >separating power into the state and economy into the market gets good results. How do you think this would be done? How do you remove power from money? Money is literally the ability to convert numbers into labor, land, food,
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      Power is things like: can lock someone in a box due to them not giving a percentage of their income; can send someone to die in another country; can stop someone building somewhere; can demand someone's money as a penalty for an infraction of a rule you wrote. You don't need money for those things. Money (in a market) can buy you things, but only things people are willing to sell. You don't exert power; you exchange value.
      - whelp_24 3y ago
        Money can and does do all of those things. Through regulatory capture, rent seeking, even just good old hiring goons. The government itself uses money to do those things. Police don't work for free, prisons aren't built for free, guns aren't free. The government can be thought of as having unfathomable amounts of money. The assets of a country includes the entire country (less anyone with enough money to defend it). If a sword is kinetic energy, money is potential energy. It is a battery that only needs to be connected to the right place to be devastating. And money can buy you someone who knows the right place. Governments have power because they have resources (money) not the other way around.
        robertlagrant 3y ago
        > Through regulatory capture, rent seeking, even just good old hiring goons. Regulatory capture is using the state's power. The state is the one with the power. Rent seeking is the same. Hiring goons is illegal. If you're willing to include illegal things then all bets are off. But from your list of non-illegal things, 100% of them are the state using its power to wrong ends. > The government itself uses money to do those things. Police don't work for free, prisons aren't built for free, guns aren't free. Yes, but the point about power is the state has the right to lock you up. How it pays the guards is immaterial; they could be paid with potatoes and it'd still have the right. They could just be paid in "we won't lock you up if you lock them up". However, if Bill Gates wants to publicly set up a prison in the USA and lock people in it, he will go to jail. His money doesn't buy that power. So, no. The state doesn't have power because it has enough money to pay for a prison and someone to throw you in it. People with money can't do what the state does.
thiagoharry 3y ago
> There were rich people in the USSR that were killed. They had no power Precisely, they were not a capitalist society, where capital (and not simply "money" as you said) is source of power, like in capitalist societies.