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Bitcoin along with most cryptocurrencies (broadly priced in it), is controlled by a small cartel of deeply entrenched miners and large wallet stakeholders who

Bitcoin along with most cryptocurrencies (broadly priced in it), is controlled by a small cartel of deeply entrenched miners and large wallet stakeholders who were involved early on and have constantly consolidated their positions both over infrastructural custody, that is, mining, and control of liquidity. There's a staggering amount of illegal mining that is never accounted for in the economic models used to determine how much control these folks have over liquidity; this entire conversation is just broadly discouraged and for whatever reason seems to have attracted very little interest even from the crypto critics out there. The number one weapon the crypto cartel uses to shut down dangwrous critical turns developing in the story, is their ability to move the last trade price almost at will, completely opposed to any building critical narrative in order to undermine it, knowing full well that the sympathy of the media reliably lies with "number go up", not "number made up." And they can do this because they're sitting on an enormous warchest of unsold coins mined when prices were far cheaper, which they can use to fund their operations while they throttle back current coinbase sales at current prices to prop up the price.

Quindecillion 3y ago
There's a lot of problems with your post, but I'm going to focus on the one that bamboozled me the most. > illegal mining What exactly is "illegal mining"?
- ChainOfFools 3y ago
  2022: https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2455120/thousan https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2455120/thousan... 2023: (much smaller scale than above but still stealing over USD $150000 a year in electricity) https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2569745/crypto- https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2569745/crypto-... This time around the authorities estimate that they've only found 1%, not 10% as they had before, of the illegal mining done in their country.
  - Quindecillion 3y ago
    100 million baht in 2 years? So about $1.5m USD in a year. That's not exactly "staggering" or significant in the context of the Bitcoin network. Unlikely that such operations have any meaningful control over the network or liquidity, even if it's just 1% of what's known. You seem to think that these sorts of operations are somehow connected in a large coordinated cartel the controls the industry, but given that they're illegal, isn't it far more likely that these "black market" operators are fairly small by comparison to the legitimate players in the US? The mining ban in China a couple of years back gave us a pretty good indication of the size of the legitimate industry in that country, and it absolutely DWARFS the biggest of the illegal examples you gave. Interesting way to word it too, "illegal mining". They're just stealing electricity. If they used that stolen electricity for heating, you wouldn't call it "illegal heating", would you?
    - ChainOfFools 3y ago
      So you read the article, as well as the quote that I put above and therefore you know that this is estimated to be only 1% of the illegal mining done in _Thailand_ alone, and this in just the past couple of years when visibility of cryptocurrency has been well established even in non-tech circles. It's been happening ever since crypto mining, especially Bitcoin, existed. Long before most anyone knew what mining was, or knew to look for it being done stealrhily on someone elses's dollar ...or baht. I didn't say I condone stealing electricity for any purpose, but there's a particular hypocrisy with crypto people who claim that mining costs chase the hash rate and difficulty adjustments ensure that everyone has a fair shot at winning a coin base. Obvious nonsense. It's hypocrisy that crypto people, who like to think of themselves as some sort of sophisticated financial visiinary class, are so hopelessly naive that it would never even occur to them to consider that being rationally self interested will inevitably and swiftly devolve into outright theft, and the obfuscated consolidation of power favors the venal corrupt and those who are willing to benefit from wholesale theft, which is why such people are entrenched at the center of this so-called decentralized system.
      - midmagico 3y ago
FabHK 3y ago
> crypto cartel [...] ability to move the last trade price almost at will I think there is lots of manipulation, but could you elaborate on how you can, for example, pump the BTC price up when you hold lots of BTC, but no USD? Leveraged futures on crypto-only exchanges?
- ChainOfFools 3y ago
  Miners are the only source of continuous downward pressure on the price, there are other sources of course but miners are nearly clockwork steady sellers, so the market gets accustomed to this effect. all they have to do is let up a tiny bit. the standard narrative is that they can't afford to do so because of the balance between diff rate adjusted mining costs and market price of the mined coin. What I'm pointing out is that because of the massive amount of head start they had from a decade of largely unpoliced mining wherever they found an "opportunity" to do so, legally or not, (as well as continued theft of resources to mine even today), they have plenty of extra reserves to use to cover costs, (assuming that they even pay market cost in the first place - see also: corruption) selling coins at today is prices which were mined at one, two, three+ years old cost rates or less. This is not even getting into the circus known as tether, which I believe is a significant factor but actually quite a bit of an over-stated red herring serving (along with constant exchange clownery) as a distraction away from the much bigger influence that is the enormous subjective control miners have over the order book price of the coin.

Quindecillion 3y ago

There's a lot of problems with your post, but I'm going to focus on the one that bamboozled me the most. > illegal mining What exactly is "illegal mining"?

ChainOfFools 3y ago
2022: https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2455120/thousan https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2455120/thousan... 2023: (much smaller scale than above but still stealing over USD $150000 a year in electricity) https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2569745/crypto- https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2569745/crypto-... This time around the authorities estimate that they've only found 1%, not 10% as they had before, of the illegal mining done in their country.
- Quindecillion 3y ago
  100 million baht in 2 years? So about $1.5m USD in a year. That's not exactly "staggering" or significant in the context of the Bitcoin network. Unlikely that such operations have any meaningful control over the network or liquidity, even if it's just 1% of what's known. You seem to think that these sorts of operations are somehow connected in a large coordinated cartel the controls the industry, but given that they're illegal, isn't it far more likely that these "black market" operators are fairly small by comparison to the legitimate players in the US? The mining ban in China a couple of years back gave us a pretty good indication of the size of the legitimate industry in that country, and it absolutely DWARFS the biggest of the illegal examples you gave. Interesting way to word it too, "illegal mining". They're just stealing electricity. If they used that stolen electricity for heating, you wouldn't call it "illegal heating", would you?
  - ChainOfFools 3y ago
    So you read the article, as well as the quote that I put above and therefore you know that this is estimated to be only 1% of the illegal mining done in _Thailand_ alone, and this in just the past couple of years when visibility of cryptocurrency has been well established even in non-tech circles. It's been happening ever since crypto mining, especially Bitcoin, existed. Long before most anyone knew what mining was, or knew to look for it being done stealrhily on someone elses's dollar ...or baht. I didn't say I condone stealing electricity for any purpose, but there's a particular hypocrisy with crypto people who claim that mining costs chase the hash rate and difficulty adjustments ensure that everyone has a fair shot at winning a coin base. Obvious nonsense. It's hypocrisy that crypto people, who like to think of themselves as some sort of sophisticated financial visiinary class, are so hopelessly naive that it would never even occur to them to consider that being rationally self interested will inevitably and swiftly devolve into outright theft, and the obfuscated consolidation of power favors the venal corrupt and those who are willing to benefit from wholesale theft, which is why such people are entrenched at the center of this so-called decentralized system.
    - midmagico 3y ago

FabHK 3y ago

> crypto cartel [...] ability to move the last trade price almost at will I think there is lots of manipulation, but could you elaborate on how you can, for example, pump the BTC price up when you hold lots of BTC, but no USD? Leveraged futures on crypto-only exchanges?

ChainOfFools 3y ago
Miners are the only source of continuous downward pressure on the price, there are other sources of course but miners are nearly clockwork steady sellers, so the market gets accustomed to this effect. all they have to do is let up a tiny bit. the standard narrative is that they can't afford to do so because of the balance between diff rate adjusted mining costs and market price of the mined coin. What I'm pointing out is that because of the massive amount of head start they had from a decade of largely unpoliced mining wherever they found an "opportunity" to do so, legally or not, (as well as continued theft of resources to mine even today), they have plenty of extra reserves to use to cover costs, (assuming that they even pay market cost in the first place - see also: corruption) selling coins at today is prices which were mined at one, two, three+ years old cost rates or less. This is not even getting into the circus known as tether, which I believe is a significant factor but actually quite a bit of an over-stated red herring serving (along with constant exchange clownery) as a distraction away from the much bigger influence that is the enormous subjective control miners have over the order book price of the coin.