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>I do remember there being express commuter trains in the Tokyo/Yokohama area. Those are express trains, not "high speed rail". HSR means bullet trains. Expr

>I do remember there being express commuter trains in the Tokyo/Yokohama area. Those are express trains, not "high speed rail". HSR means bullet trains. Express commuter trains simply skip stations; they're not especially fast. >In general, Americans need to start getting used to in-fill development and purpose-shift renovation, because we can't afford new and sprawl anymore. It's not going to happen anytime soon, because too many Americans love their zoning laws and suburban sprawl and SUVs. The ones with the most political power are all NIMBYs who don't want more development or walkability.

underlipton 3y ago
>Those are express trains, not "high speed rail". I didn't say they were. I was replying to the assertion that there were no alternatives to slow trains that stop at every station, as far as regular people and their commutes are concerned. >It's not going to happen anytime soon, because too many Americans love their zoning laws and suburban sprawl and SUVs. The ones with the most political power are all NIMBYs who don't want more development or walkability. I'm not exactly optimistic, either, but there are definitely places making an effort. The problem extends beyond NIMBYs to a large swath of people who profit from the pain. Pensioners with auto and energy blue chips in their funds' portfolio, REIT investors, zero-tolerance nature lovers who have no hope of stopping existing industry and so focus on nascent projects, etc. We are far beyond NIMBY; a lot of people don't want anything in anyone's backyard. This is partly why I think in-fill and purpose-shifting is important. If you really need a parking lot there, build it under the economically-useful structure.
- shiroiuma 3y ago
  >I was replying to the assertion that there were no alternatives to slow trains that stop at every station, as far as regular people and their commutes are concerned. There are no alternatives, for many, many lines. Anywhere inside the Yamanote line, there are generally no express lines; all the Tokyo Metro lines stop at every station. It entirely depends on which line you're taking; some lines have express trains, many don't. There are over 120 train lines in the Tokyo metro area; you can't make generalizations like that about them. >This is partly why I think in-fill and purpose-shifting is important. In-fill is necessary if you want America to have the kind of density needed to make public transit economically viable, but it's almost impossible to do as long as car culture is so important and parking requirements exist. Personally, I just gave up on the idea of America being a nice place to live within my lifetime, and moved to Tokyo. Why bother pining for the kind of lifestyle I wish existed in America, when I can just move to a place where it already is the norm?
  - underlipton 3y ago
    >Anywhere inside the Yamanote line, there are generally no express lines; all the Tokyo Metro lines stop at every station. That makes sense, because it's the ring line surrounding and regular lines serving historically dense portions of Tokyo. Express trains to what count as suburbs in Japan are efficient. The point is to keep commutes less than an hour each way (which is more tolerable than the ~30 min in America since you're not driving). >but it's almost impossible to do as long as car culture is so important and parking requirements exist. There's been movement on that front. But, again, the problem isn't the rules themselves, but the benefit people get from them being so widespread (essentially forcing other people to subsidize their lifestyle). The true culprit is that so many Americans profit from impoverishment (of their neighbors and municipalities).
    - shiroiuma 3y ago
      Yeah, this is all correct. But hour-long commutes from outside the Yamanote line aren't uncommon, once you count the different trains you have to take and the total time it takes to get door-to-door. But you're right, it's a lot better (less stressful and dangerous) than driving for 30 minutes. And agreed: too many Americans profit from making things worse for others. Though it's kinda hard to see how it's really better. Sure, in terms of absolute USD it's profitable, but in terms of healthy lifestyle, a safe society to live in, etc. it's terrible. I guess if all you care about is having a huge house to stay inside all the time, it's better.
- shiroiuma 3y ago
  >I didn't say they were. Actually, you did. You wrote: >They also have a huge high speed rail network, which makes a huge amount of land available to commuters. Express trains are not high speed rail. The bullet trains do NOT make a huge amount of land available to commuters; they cost a lot to ride on, so no one who isn't very rich could afford to commute on one every day. Not many people can afford USD$100-200 per day for commuting.
  - underlipton 3y ago
    >Actually, you did. You wrote: >>They also have a huge high speed rail network, which makes a huge amount of land available to commuters. That wasn't me.
    - shiroiuma 3y ago
      Whoops, sorry about that. Sometimes I don't realize it's not the same person in a thread.

underlipton 3y ago

>Those are express trains, not "high speed rail". I didn't say they were. I was replying to the assertion that there were no alternatives to slow trains that stop at every station, as far as regular people and their commutes are concerned. >It's not going to happen anytime soon, because too many Americans love their zoning laws and suburban sprawl and SUVs. The ones with the most political power are all NIMBYs who don't want more development or walkability. I'm not exactly optimistic, either, but there are definitely places making an effort. The problem extends beyond NIMBYs to a large swath of people who profit from the pain. Pensioners with auto and energy blue chips in their funds' portfolio, REIT investors, zero-tolerance nature lovers who have no hope of stopping existing industry and so focus on nascent projects, etc. We are far beyond NIMBY; a lot of people don't want anything in anyone's backyard. This is partly why I think in-fill and purpose-shifting is important. If you really need a parking lot there, build it under the economically-useful structure.

shiroiuma 3y ago
>I was replying to the assertion that there were no alternatives to slow trains that stop at every station, as far as regular people and their commutes are concerned. There are no alternatives, for many, many lines. Anywhere inside the Yamanote line, there are generally no express lines; all the Tokyo Metro lines stop at every station. It entirely depends on which line you're taking; some lines have express trains, many don't. There are over 120 train lines in the Tokyo metro area; you can't make generalizations like that about them. >This is partly why I think in-fill and purpose-shifting is important. In-fill is necessary if you want America to have the kind of density needed to make public transit economically viable, but it's almost impossible to do as long as car culture is so important and parking requirements exist. Personally, I just gave up on the idea of America being a nice place to live within my lifetime, and moved to Tokyo. Why bother pining for the kind of lifestyle I wish existed in America, when I can just move to a place where it already is the norm?
- underlipton 3y ago
  >Anywhere inside the Yamanote line, there are generally no express lines; all the Tokyo Metro lines stop at every station. That makes sense, because it's the ring line surrounding and regular lines serving historically dense portions of Tokyo. Express trains to what count as suburbs in Japan are efficient. The point is to keep commutes less than an hour each way (which is more tolerable than the ~30 min in America since you're not driving). >but it's almost impossible to do as long as car culture is so important and parking requirements exist. There's been movement on that front. But, again, the problem isn't the rules themselves, but the benefit people get from them being so widespread (essentially forcing other people to subsidize their lifestyle). The true culprit is that so many Americans profit from impoverishment (of their neighbors and municipalities).
  - shiroiuma 3y ago
    Yeah, this is all correct. But hour-long commutes from outside the Yamanote line aren't uncommon, once you count the different trains you have to take and the total time it takes to get door-to-door. But you're right, it's a lot better (less stressful and dangerous) than driving for 30 minutes. And agreed: too many Americans profit from making things worse for others. Though it's kinda hard to see how it's really better. Sure, in terms of absolute USD it's profitable, but in terms of healthy lifestyle, a safe society to live in, etc. it's terrible. I guess if all you care about is having a huge house to stay inside all the time, it's better.
shiroiuma 3y ago
>I didn't say they were. Actually, you did. You wrote: >They also have a huge high speed rail network, which makes a huge amount of land available to commuters. Express trains are not high speed rail. The bullet trains do NOT make a huge amount of land available to commuters; they cost a lot to ride on, so no one who isn't very rich could afford to commute on one every day. Not many people can afford USD$100-200 per day for commuting.
- underlipton 3y ago
  >Actually, you did. You wrote: >>They also have a huge high speed rail network, which makes a huge amount of land available to commuters. That wasn't me.
  - shiroiuma 3y ago
    Whoops, sorry about that. Sometimes I don't realize it's not the same person in a thread.