3 ms·

This is the lawsuit that Elon threatened (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1725771191644758037 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1725771191644758037), but

This is the lawsuit that Elon threatened (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1725771191644758037 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1725771191644758037), but am surprised he actually went through with it.

dc396 3y ago
[flagged]
- minimaxir 3y ago
  Point 5 of the complaint is funny: > This November alone Media Matters released over twenty articles (and counting) disparaging both X Corp. and Elon Musk—a blatant smear campaign.
  - andrewxdiamond 3y ago
    Smear and slander are not free speech
    - bigmattystyles 3y ago
      You need actual malicious intent - what protects media matters is the same thing that protects most crazed AM broadcasters right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Times_Co._v._Sullivan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Times_Co._v._Sullivan
      - dragontamer 3y ago
        IIRC, "Reckless" is enough for some cases of slander. I don't see how this passes the bar of "Reckless" however.
        rsynnott 3y ago
        Also, of course, if what was said is _true_, then intent becomes irrelevant.
    - mikeyouse 3y ago
      They actually are free speech, especially if someone considers themselves a "free speech absolutist". I keep hearing from these guys that the answer to speech you don't like is more speech. Musk owns one of the most prominent social media sites in the world - he could have front-paged an article explaining why Media Matters was wrong, the steps they took to 'contrive' their result, etc. etc. But no, after encouragement from some of the worst people in the country, he forum shopped a vexatious lawsuit to get the Federal government to punish a company who's speech Elon didn't like. Extremely revealing. Edit; Just to remind everyone - this most recent spat started when one user posted a super antisemitic screed about how the jews have been pushing white-hatred and that they essentially deserve what they get from the "hordes of minorities" -- to which Elon replied, "You have said the actual truth".
      - emmelaich 3y ago
        [flagged]
        mikeyouse 3y ago
        Ah yes, famously measured scholar, "LibsofTikTok" weighing in on whether someone claiming Jews are importing "hordes of minorities" due to their "hatred of whites" is antisemtic or not. Meanwhile, antisemitic mass murders used the same rationale to justify their actions and tons of white supremacists celebrated Elon's comments. Very normal.
        emmelaich 3y ago
        Quote, directly please, the sentences that you are criticizing. Also, I have no idea what scholarly has got to do with it. She's an orthodox Jew, she's not going to encourage anti-semitism.
        mikeyouse 3y ago
        Anyone defending the great replacement bullshit at this point in history should do more reading and less posting, so good luck with that. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/11/elon-musks-disturbing-truth/676019/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/11/elon-musks...
    - rsynnott 3y ago
      In the US, and in most countries, it’s not slander if it’s true. For a public figure, the standard is quite high; you’re talking a malicious objective lie. And even _then_ it can be hard to prove, as Naughty Old Mr Car knows very well; remember the Thailand thing? So, “figure X is a stupid arsehole”: not slander. “Figure X has been sneaking into my kitchen and stealing the milk”: might be slander, depending.
- emmelaich 3y ago
  No one is a free speech absolutist if you take absolutist in its literal sense.
lepus 3y ago
With his personal trajectory over the past several years I would have been surprised if he didn't.
- minimaxir 3y ago
  There's a nonzero chance that just filing the lawsuit will make things worse (discovery, anti-SLAPP countersuit, advertisers seeing the chaos and leaving faster) than doing nothing at all.
  - davidw 3y ago
    Apparently the lawsuit was filed somewhere where the anti-SLAPP stuff doesn't work? https://www.threads.net/@kenpopehat/post/Cz41iIQL7I5 https://www.threads.net/@kenpopehat/post/Cz41iIQL7I5
    - minimaxir 3y ago
      That is apparently the case. Although one wonders if you can counter a bad venue with another bad venue.
  - evan_ 3y ago
    Certainly invites a Streisand Effect.
dragontamer 3y ago
As am I. The lawsuit doesn't doubt the legitimacy of Media Matters's experiment either, instead it just demeans it. Normally, the lawsuit template against slander is "The other guy was lying, they were malicious (or reckless) about it, and here's how it damaged us". In this case, they have multiple paragraphs describing Media Matter's procedure, proving that the screenshots are real. That's a very weak case to stand upon IMO. ------------ I think Media Matter's defense is simple. The screenshots were real and we have a reason to believe they're representative of Twitter's engagement process. How does this pass the bar of recklessness for Media Matters?
- minimaxir 3y ago
  Media Matter's defense will most likely be filing for dismissal due to improper venue.
  - meepmorp 3y ago
    Could you elaborate on why? I'd appreciate more perspective on the matter.
    - dragontamer 3y ago
      Media Matters exists in Washington DC. Twitter exists in Nevada. This court filing is in Texas for some reason, which is really strange.
      - mikeyouse 3y ago
        The ND of Texas is a famously right-wing Federal district - so litigants with marginal cases but causes sympathetic to conservatives "forum shop" to try to get in front of specific judges there. https://newrepublic.com/article/165730/northern-district-texas-judges-block-biden-policies https://newrepublic.com/article/165730/northern-district-tex...
    - minimaxir 3y ago
      I am not a lawyer, but the argument that Media Matters/Eric Hananoki has personal jurisdiction in Texas (Point 19) is...a stretch. The real reason Elon is suing in Texas is politically motivated: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1726767436618191177 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1726767436618191177 EDIT: Ken White says that a change of venue would be unlikely to succeed: https://www.threads.net/@matthewrigdon/post/Cz42BAtp_X7 https://www.threads.net/@matthewrigdon/post/Cz42BAtp_X7
kstrauser 3y ago
I'm not. It seems like an absolutely terrible idea with no hope of a good outcome, which is kind of his thing these days.
adrr 3y ago
Because he's all about freedom of speech. /s

dc396 3y ago

[flagged]

minimaxir 3y ago
Point 5 of the complaint is funny: > This November alone Media Matters released over twenty articles (and counting) disparaging both X Corp. and Elon Musk—a blatant smear campaign.
- andrewxdiamond 3y ago
  Smear and slander are not free speech
  - bigmattystyles 3y ago
    You need actual malicious intent - what protects media matters is the same thing that protects most crazed AM broadcasters right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Times_Co._v._Sullivan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Times_Co._v._Sullivan
    - dragontamer 3y ago
      IIRC, "Reckless" is enough for some cases of slander. I don't see how this passes the bar of "Reckless" however.
      - rsynnott 3y ago
        Also, of course, if what was said is _true_, then intent becomes irrelevant.
  - mikeyouse 3y ago
    They actually are free speech, especially if someone considers themselves a "free speech absolutist". I keep hearing from these guys that the answer to speech you don't like is more speech. Musk owns one of the most prominent social media sites in the world - he could have front-paged an article explaining why Media Matters was wrong, the steps they took to 'contrive' their result, etc. etc. But no, after encouragement from some of the worst people in the country, he forum shopped a vexatious lawsuit to get the Federal government to punish a company who's speech Elon didn't like. Extremely revealing. Edit; Just to remind everyone - this most recent spat started when one user posted a super antisemitic screed about how the jews have been pushing white-hatred and that they essentially deserve what they get from the "hordes of minorities" -- to which Elon replied, "You have said the actual truth".
    - emmelaich 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - mikeyouse 3y ago
        Ah yes, famously measured scholar, "LibsofTikTok" weighing in on whether someone claiming Jews are importing "hordes of minorities" due to their "hatred of whites" is antisemtic or not. Meanwhile, antisemitic mass murders used the same rationale to justify their actions and tons of white supremacists celebrated Elon's comments. Very normal.
        emmelaich 3y ago
        Quote, directly please, the sentences that you are criticizing. Also, I have no idea what scholarly has got to do with it. She's an orthodox Jew, she's not going to encourage anti-semitism.
        mikeyouse 3y ago
        Anyone defending the great replacement bullshit at this point in history should do more reading and less posting, so good luck with that. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/11/elon-musks-disturbing-truth/676019/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/11/elon-musks...
  - rsynnott 3y ago
    In the US, and in most countries, it’s not slander if it’s true. For a public figure, the standard is quite high; you’re talking a malicious objective lie. And even _then_ it can be hard to prove, as Naughty Old Mr Car knows very well; remember the Thailand thing? So, “figure X is a stupid arsehole”: not slander. “Figure X has been sneaking into my kitchen and stealing the milk”: might be slander, depending.
emmelaich 3y ago
No one is a free speech absolutist if you take absolutist in its literal sense.

lepus 3y ago

With his personal trajectory over the past several years I would have been surprised if he didn't.

minimaxir 3y ago
There's a nonzero chance that just filing the lawsuit will make things worse (discovery, anti-SLAPP countersuit, advertisers seeing the chaos and leaving faster) than doing nothing at all.
- davidw 3y ago
  Apparently the lawsuit was filed somewhere where the anti-SLAPP stuff doesn't work? https://www.threads.net/@kenpopehat/post/Cz41iIQL7I5 https://www.threads.net/@kenpopehat/post/Cz41iIQL7I5
  - minimaxir 3y ago
    That is apparently the case. Although one wonders if you can counter a bad venue with another bad venue.
- evan_ 3y ago
  Certainly invites a Streisand Effect.

dragontamer 3y ago

As am I. The lawsuit doesn't doubt the legitimacy of Media Matters's experiment either, instead it just demeans it. Normally, the lawsuit template against slander is "The other guy was lying, they were malicious (or reckless) about it, and here's how it damaged us". In this case, they have multiple paragraphs describing Media Matter's procedure, proving that the screenshots are real. That's a very weak case to stand upon IMO. ------------ I think Media Matter's defense is simple. The screenshots were real and we have a reason to believe they're representative of Twitter's engagement process. How does this pass the bar of recklessness for Media Matters?

minimaxir 3y ago
Media Matter's defense will most likely be filing for dismissal due to improper venue.
- meepmorp 3y ago
  Could you elaborate on why? I'd appreciate more perspective on the matter.
  - dragontamer 3y ago
    Media Matters exists in Washington DC. Twitter exists in Nevada. This court filing is in Texas for some reason, which is really strange.
    - mikeyouse 3y ago
      The ND of Texas is a famously right-wing Federal district - so litigants with marginal cases but causes sympathetic to conservatives "forum shop" to try to get in front of specific judges there. https://newrepublic.com/article/165730/northern-district-texas-judges-block-biden-policies https://newrepublic.com/article/165730/northern-district-tex...
  - minimaxir 3y ago
    I am not a lawyer, but the argument that Media Matters/Eric Hananoki has personal jurisdiction in Texas (Point 19) is...a stretch. The real reason Elon is suing in Texas is politically motivated: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1726767436618191177 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1726767436618191177 EDIT: Ken White says that a change of venue would be unlikely to succeed: https://www.threads.net/@matthewrigdon/post/Cz42BAtp_X7 https://www.threads.net/@matthewrigdon/post/Cz42BAtp_X7

kstrauser 3y ago

I'm not. It seems like an absolutely terrible idea with no hope of a good outcome, which is kind of his thing these days.

adrr 3y ago

Because he's all about freedom of speech. /s