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What's the definition of "wrongdoing" in the context of this article?... * Criminality? * Illegality? * Immorality (and according to whose standards)? * Mis

What's the definition of "wrongdoing" in the context of this article?... * Criminality? * Illegality? * Immorality (and according to whose standards)? * Misrepresentation/dishonesty? * Abuse?

bartwr 3y ago
As an engineer, you generally don't know which one applies. Even qualified lawyers don't decide on the actual criminality (a jury or judge after a valid trial does). So I assume that "reporting wrongdoing" encompasses reporting up your management chain anything that "feels off," from mildly misleading marketing to actual witnessed or experienced harassment. Probably, in the vast majority of the cases, you are not qualified to judge it. And in any case, even if you are wrong and the reported thing is "ok", there should never be any retaliation for just raising concerns and speaking up. Side note and something hilarious, creepy, but kind of making sense: at one workplace (not SV big tech, but a big company), I had a manager-only training about "illegal harassment" that explicitly taught us what kinds of harassment are illegal (against protected categories) vs. "just" breaking the company's code of conduct, with quizzes on hypothetical situations and asking us "is this bad behavior potentially illegal harassment?".
_8j50 3y ago
Does this really require an explanation? There is a right way of how things should be done, that includes everything you listed and also internal company rules, industry standard ethics and business practices but also implied and informally accepted norms and anything that isn't in the interest of the company. So long as the person believes it is wrong, they can be corrected if they are wrong but they shouldn't be retaliated against!
xboxnolifes 3y ago
Does it matter in the context of the article? Would any option from that list make retaliation okay?
- paulcole 3y ago
  > Immorality (and according to whose standards)? > Misrepresentation/dishonesty? These can be a matter of perspective and if someone’s morals doesn’t align with their employer’s, then they probably shouldn’t work there.
- jimbob45 3y ago
  If I report my boss for an off-color joke about Sri Lankans, I might rightfully be seen as a firestarter or someone who is looking for trouble so that they can tattle. I’m okay with quashing tattletales. If I report my boss because I see him embezzling company funds and I’m retaliated against, that would be less okay.
  - olliej 3y ago
    Are you saying that retaliation for report a person in a hiring position making racist jokes is reasonable? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying. Racism in employment is explicitly illegal, and any Sri Lankan could now point to this manager's "off color" (racist) jokes as evidence of race based bias at your company. e.g. this manager's behavior is creating significant legal and financial risk for the company. That said you should absolutely report the racist, sexist, homophobic, or transphobic "jokes" and if your company retaliates because "you're a tattletale for reporting discriminatory comments in our workplace so we should punish/fire them" you should sue them, for quite a lot of money. Because here's the thing, a new hire, an intern, or a person on a work based visa say may not feel safe making a complaint, especially if they're the subject group for the discriminatory "joke" as this manager has already demonstrated they're worth joking about. So if you are in a position where you can report such behaviour you can directly help others. Also it's a professional environment, even if it were legal, wtf is a manager or anyone making racist jokes?
ganeshkrishnan 3y ago
I have seen criminality being reported in written format and sometimes to as high as the Federal Police and nothing ever come of it. Those with power are not going to roll over and accept their mistakes and change. They arm twist everyone and everything to get their way.
abeppu 3y ago
Does it matter? The start of the article is talking about reporting stuff _to their employer_, not e.g. a government watchdog or something. > 53% of software engineers have suspected wrongdoing at work with ~145,000 software engineers in the UK having experienced retaliation the last time they reported it _to their employers_. (emphasis mine) If your company is silently setting the policy that _internal communication_ raising that something bad is going on will be punished, then you're creating an environment where all of these will flourish. Even if the reporter is mistaken about whether something is illegal, or holds a moral view which is not shared by most of upper management, the responsible response is still, "thanks for raising this to our attention; we'll have someone appropriately unrelated to the complaint look into it." If your response is "telling us about bad stuff will be punished" then obviously when something bad occurs that you'd actually want to stop (e.g. b/c it will create legal liabilities, damage the brand, etc), you'll learn about it too late. Even the framing of high rates of "retaliation" sort of presumes that _reporting something wrong_ internally is a hostile action, which is already toxic and dangerous.
1letterunixname 3y ago
Exactly. It's easy to wax rhetorical hypotheticals in news copy. In the real world, there are better ways to handle different things. Some things need leading questions. Others with concern or prodding questions. Still other things can be joked about. Serious matters should be handled cautiously and perhaps with the input of others where appropriate. There are also some boundaries beyond which matters aren't someone's business to address.

What's the definition of "wrongdoing" in the context of this article?... * Criminality? * Illegality? * Immorality (and according to whose standards)? * Misrepresentation/dishonesty? * Abuse?

bartwr 3y ago

As an engineer, you generally don't know which one applies. Even qualified lawyers don't decide on the actual criminality (a jury or judge after a valid trial does). So I assume that "reporting wrongdoing" encompasses reporting up your management chain anything that "feels off," from mildly misleading marketing to actual witnessed or experienced harassment. Probably, in the vast majority of the cases, you are not qualified to judge it. And in any case, even if you are wrong and the reported thing is "ok", there should never be any retaliation for just raising concerns and speaking up. Side note and something hilarious, creepy, but kind of making sense: at one workplace (not SV big tech, but a big company), I had a manager-only training about "illegal harassment" that explicitly taught us what kinds of harassment are illegal (against protected categories) vs. "just" breaking the company's code of conduct, with quizzes on hypothetical situations and asking us "is this bad behavior potentially illegal harassment?".

_8j50 3y ago

Does this really require an explanation? There is a right way of how things should be done, that includes everything you listed and also internal company rules, industry standard ethics and business practices but also implied and informally accepted norms and anything that isn't in the interest of the company. So long as the person believes it is wrong, they can be corrected if they are wrong but they shouldn't be retaliated against!

xboxnolifes 3y ago

Does it matter in the context of the article? Would any option from that list make retaliation okay?

paulcole 3y ago
> Immorality (and according to whose standards)? > Misrepresentation/dishonesty? These can be a matter of perspective and if someone’s morals doesn’t align with their employer’s, then they probably shouldn’t work there.
jimbob45 3y ago
If I report my boss for an off-color joke about Sri Lankans, I might rightfully be seen as a firestarter or someone who is looking for trouble so that they can tattle. I’m okay with quashing tattletales. If I report my boss because I see him embezzling company funds and I’m retaliated against, that would be less okay.
- olliej 3y ago
  Are you saying that retaliation for report a person in a hiring position making racist jokes is reasonable? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying. Racism in employment is explicitly illegal, and any Sri Lankan could now point to this manager's "off color" (racist) jokes as evidence of race based bias at your company. e.g. this manager's behavior is creating significant legal and financial risk for the company. That said you should absolutely report the racist, sexist, homophobic, or transphobic "jokes" and if your company retaliates because "you're a tattletale for reporting discriminatory comments in our workplace so we should punish/fire them" you should sue them, for quite a lot of money. Because here's the thing, a new hire, an intern, or a person on a work based visa say may not feel safe making a complaint, especially if they're the subject group for the discriminatory "joke" as this manager has already demonstrated they're worth joking about. So if you are in a position where you can report such behaviour you can directly help others. Also it's a professional environment, even if it were legal, wtf is a manager or anyone making racist jokes?

ganeshkrishnan 3y ago

I have seen criminality being reported in written format and sometimes to as high as the Federal Police and nothing ever come of it. Those with power are not going to roll over and accept their mistakes and change. They arm twist everyone and everything to get their way.

abeppu 3y ago

Does it matter? The start of the article is talking about reporting stuff _to their employer_, not e.g. a government watchdog or something. > 53% of software engineers have suspected wrongdoing at work with ~145,000 software engineers in the UK having experienced retaliation the last time they reported it _to their employers_. (emphasis mine) If your company is silently setting the policy that _internal communication_ raising that something bad is going on will be punished, then you're creating an environment where all of these will flourish. Even if the reporter is mistaken about whether something is illegal, or holds a moral view which is not shared by most of upper management, the responsible response is still, "thanks for raising this to our attention; we'll have someone appropriately unrelated to the complaint look into it." If your response is "telling us about bad stuff will be punished" then obviously when something bad occurs that you'd actually want to stop (e.g. b/c it will create legal liabilities, damage the brand, etc), you'll learn about it too late. Even the framing of high rates of "retaliation" sort of presumes that _reporting something wrong_ internally is a hostile action, which is already toxic and dangerous.

1letterunixname 3y ago

Exactly. It's easy to wax rhetorical hypotheticals in news copy. In the real world, there are better ways to handle different things. Some things need leading questions. Others with concern or prodding questions. Still other things can be joked about. Serious matters should be handled cautiously and perhaps with the input of others where appropriate. There are also some boundaries beyond which matters aren't someone's business to address.