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Venmo, Cash App users sue Apple over peer-to-peer payment fees

122 points by mfiguiere 3y ago

e63f67dd-065b 3y ago
> Apple's agreements limit "feature competition" within peer-to-peer payment apps, including prohibiting existing or new platforms from using "decentralized cryptocurrency technology," the complaint said. > The lawsuit seeks an injunction that could force Apple to divest or segregate its Apple Cash business > The plaintiffs in the new lawsuit alleged Apple, Venmo and Cash App "have repeatedly raised prices for transactions and services with no competitive check." > They argued that a peer-to-peer app based on "decentralized" crypto technology "would allow iPhone users to send payments to each other without any intermediary at all." > The lawsuit said Apple has excluded from its App Store at least two Bitcoin wallet apps, Zeus and Damus, which is backed by Block founder Jack Dorsey. If I understand the claim correctly, the plaintiffs are arguing that Apple is colluding with Paypal and Cashapp to restrict cryptocurrency wallet apps from the App Store, which drives up the cost of p2p payments? Good luck I guess.
- codetrotter 3y ago
  I don’t understand what argument that is. On my iPhone I have: - Kraken Pro app, where I can buy and sell bitcoins - Ledger Live app, which I use with my hardware Ledger device for my self custody Bitcoin Using these two apps, I can buy Bitcoin, sell Bitcoin, and transfer Bitcoin to anyone using my iPhone. What is it that Apple is preventing these people from doing? If I want to send Bitcoins to you, we don’t need that Apple allows Venmo or other “peer to peer” payment apps to use cryptocurrency. Those kind of companies are irrelevant for that goal anyways. All we need is that you either have an account on an exchange, or a self-custody wallet, and I can send Bitcoin to you. All of this is possible using an iPhone.
  - everfree 3y ago
    From the article: > They argued that a peer-to-peer app based on "decentralized" crypto technology "would allow iPhone users to send payments to each other without any intermediary at all." Kraken lets you access crypto that is held in custody by an exchange company. Ledger Live lets you access crypto that resides on a separate physical device. To the best of my reading, plaintiffs argue that Apple is preventing people from holding cryptocurrency on their iPhone. As in, the private keys are stored in the app's secure storage space, so the crypto is actually "in" the phone and not with a company or on a separate device. So to answer your question, that's what it seems plaintiffs are alleging that Apple prevents people from doing.
    - kstrauser 3y ago
      Trust Wallet does exactly thaf. TBH I have no idea what the plaintiffs are actually contending.
      - yieldcrv 3y ago
        you shouldn't trust Trust Wallet there have even been private key exposing bugs in it after the Binance acquisition too but yes, the conversation is about whether crypto wallets have been approved before in the app store, and that's true, its a seemingly tenuous relationship though
        kstrauser 3y ago
        I don't. I have a Ledger hardware wallet now for the smidgen of Dogecoin that I hold onto for the fun of it. But I did have Trust Wallet for a little while, downloaded straight from the official App Store.
      - everfree 3y ago
        After reading the lawsuit more closely, it seems like they’re arguing that Apple rejects applications that include cryptocurrency features but weren’t submitted by regulated financial institutions. One of their examples was a social network app that was rejected for including a crypto tipping feature.
etchalon 3y ago
I do not understand this lawsuit. > The plaintiffs in the new lawsuit alleged Apple, Venmo and Cash App "have repeatedly raised prices for transactions and services with no competitive check." They are arguing there is no competitive check between three companies who are competing with each other. My assumption here is they are trying to claim that the fact Apple hasn't enabled/allowed specific Crypto wallets on the App Store – despite their being numerous Crypto wallets on the App Store – necessarily restricts competition because if people used crypto to send money to each other, they wouldn't have to pay transaction fees – which are already $0 for the vast majority of p2p use cases in Venmo, Cash, etc. This lawsuit will go nowhere.
- hanzmanner 3y ago
  Is it even possible to send crypto with 0 transaction fees? If yes, my knowledge is really outdated in this area.
  - etchalon 3y ago
    It is not. It's actually cheaper to send money using Venmo/Cash/Paypal.
  - ForkMeOnTinder 3y ago
    The median lightning fee is currently $0.000229988. https://1ml.com/statistics https://1ml.com/statistics It's true that Venmo/etc is cheaper at $0, but remember you're paying with your data instead. Having the choice of which way to pay is welcome imo
  - MisterBiggs 3y ago
    Nano is the only crypto I'm aware of that actually does 0 transaction fees https://nano.org/ https://nano.org/
yieldcrv 3y ago
that makes sense, both Paypal and Cash App offer buying, selling, depositing and withdrawal of crypto with great ease be careful what they wish for though, Apple may solve this by accelerating the more obvious reality of integrating crypto payments and balances in Apple Wallet directly but that's how crypto works, it always gets more resilient upon challenge. everything slightly harder about crypto that builders were willing to ignore, suddenly become no brainers when faced with a challenge.
joshstrange 3y ago
> The plaintiffs in the new lawsuit alleged Apple, Venmo and Cash App "have repeatedly raised prices for transactions and services with no competitive check." Apple, Venmo, and Cash App allow sending cash for free or am I missing something? I've never paid a fee on any of them nor have I seen an increase in prices for things like the paying a business on Venmo (not sure if the other 2 have anything like that?). And all of this in the name of crypto? Yeah, I couldn't care less.
- peanuty1 3y ago
  Cash App has fees for instant withdrawals.
matchbok 3y ago
Good, crypto needs to die. What a waste of resources.

122 points by mfiguiere 3y ago

> Apple's agreements limit "feature competition" within peer-to-peer payment apps, including prohibiting existing or new platforms from using "decentralized cryptocurrency technology," the complaint said. > The lawsuit seeks an injunction that could force Apple to divest or segregate its Apple Cash business > The plaintiffs in the new lawsuit alleged Apple, Venmo and Cash App "have repeatedly raised prices for transactions and services with no competitive check." > They argued that a peer-to-peer app based on "decentralized" crypto technology "would allow iPhone users to send payments to each other without any intermediary at all." > The lawsuit said Apple has excluded from its App Store at least two Bitcoin wallet apps, Zeus and Damus, which is backed by Block founder Jack Dorsey. If I understand the claim correctly, the plaintiffs are arguing that Apple is colluding with Paypal and Cashapp to restrict cryptocurrency wallet apps from the App Store, which drives up the cost of p2p payments? Good luck I guess.

codetrotter 3y ago
I don’t understand what argument that is. On my iPhone I have: - Kraken Pro app, where I can buy and sell bitcoins - Ledger Live app, which I use with my hardware Ledger device for my self custody Bitcoin Using these two apps, I can buy Bitcoin, sell Bitcoin, and transfer Bitcoin to anyone using my iPhone. What is it that Apple is preventing these people from doing? If I want to send Bitcoins to you, we don’t need that Apple allows Venmo or other “peer to peer” payment apps to use cryptocurrency. Those kind of companies are irrelevant for that goal anyways. All we need is that you either have an account on an exchange, or a self-custody wallet, and I can send Bitcoin to you. All of this is possible using an iPhone.
- everfree 3y ago
  From the article: > They argued that a peer-to-peer app based on "decentralized" crypto technology "would allow iPhone users to send payments to each other without any intermediary at all." Kraken lets you access crypto that is held in custody by an exchange company. Ledger Live lets you access crypto that resides on a separate physical device. To the best of my reading, plaintiffs argue that Apple is preventing people from holding cryptocurrency on their iPhone. As in, the private keys are stored in the app's secure storage space, so the crypto is actually "in" the phone and not with a company or on a separate device. So to answer your question, that's what it seems plaintiffs are alleging that Apple prevents people from doing.
  - kstrauser 3y ago
    Trust Wallet does exactly thaf. TBH I have no idea what the plaintiffs are actually contending.
    - yieldcrv 3y ago
      you shouldn't trust Trust Wallet there have even been private key exposing bugs in it after the Binance acquisition too but yes, the conversation is about whether crypto wallets have been approved before in the app store, and that's true, its a seemingly tenuous relationship though
      - kstrauser 3y ago
        I don't. I have a Ledger hardware wallet now for the smidgen of Dogecoin that I hold onto for the fun of it. But I did have Trust Wallet for a little while, downloaded straight from the official App Store.
    - everfree 3y ago
      After reading the lawsuit more closely, it seems like they’re arguing that Apple rejects applications that include cryptocurrency features but weren’t submitted by regulated financial institutions. One of their examples was a social network app that was rejected for including a crypto tipping feature.

etchalon 3y ago

I do not understand this lawsuit. > The plaintiffs in the new lawsuit alleged Apple, Venmo and Cash App "have repeatedly raised prices for transactions and services with no competitive check." They are arguing there is no competitive check between three companies who are competing with each other. My assumption here is they are trying to claim that the fact Apple hasn't enabled/allowed specific Crypto wallets on the App Store – despite their being numerous Crypto wallets on the App Store – necessarily restricts competition because if people used crypto to send money to each other, they wouldn't have to pay transaction fees – which are already $0 for the vast majority of p2p use cases in Venmo, Cash, etc. This lawsuit will go nowhere.

hanzmanner 3y ago
Is it even possible to send crypto with 0 transaction fees? If yes, my knowledge is really outdated in this area.
- etchalon 3y ago
  It is not. It's actually cheaper to send money using Venmo/Cash/Paypal.
- ForkMeOnTinder 3y ago
  The median lightning fee is currently $0.000229988. https://1ml.com/statistics https://1ml.com/statistics It's true that Venmo/etc is cheaper at $0, but remember you're paying with your data instead. Having the choice of which way to pay is welcome imo
- MisterBiggs 3y ago
  Nano is the only crypto I'm aware of that actually does 0 transaction fees https://nano.org/ https://nano.org/

yieldcrv 3y ago

that makes sense, both Paypal and Cash App offer buying, selling, depositing and withdrawal of crypto with great ease be careful what they wish for though, Apple may solve this by accelerating the more obvious reality of integrating crypto payments and balances in Apple Wallet directly but that's how crypto works, it always gets more resilient upon challenge. everything slightly harder about crypto that builders were willing to ignore, suddenly become no brainers when faced with a challenge.

joshstrange 3y ago

> The plaintiffs in the new lawsuit alleged Apple, Venmo and Cash App "have repeatedly raised prices for transactions and services with no competitive check." Apple, Venmo, and Cash App allow sending cash for free or am I missing something? I've never paid a fee on any of them nor have I seen an increase in prices for things like the paying a business on Venmo (not sure if the other 2 have anything like that?). And all of this in the name of crypto? Yeah, I couldn't care less.

peanuty1 3y ago
Cash App has fees for instant withdrawals.

matchbok 3y ago

Good, crypto needs to die. What a waste of resources.