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I just tried to find a roundtrip flight from SF to LA on Google Flights. Spent some time comparing prices, different airports, etc. Ended up picking one option,

I just tried to find a roundtrip flight from SF to LA on Google Flights. Spent some time comparing prices, different airports, etc. Ended up picking one option, click, click, click - I am on the airline's website. More clicks and I am able to select the seats: went through all available seating - there is nothing available at the price that was originally surfaced to me. I can either upgrade to Delta Comfort+ for +$60 or to First Class. Sure, I can go back to Google Flights and repeat the process. But I wasted 10 minutes already, and if I had a legitimate need to fly to LA I would have most likely just upgraded to Comfort+ to save time. Are you going to blame me - the customer - for this?

pb7 3y ago
Can you give me the exact dates and flight times so I can validate this?
- hanzmanner 3y ago
  Here is the specific Google Flight I selected: https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s/yYPhNC6aXX4VP5cj8 https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s/yYPhNC6aXX4VP5cj8 Here are the screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/X923fSo https://imgur.com/a/X923fSo
  - pb7 3y ago
    I see, thanks. On an entirely different note, this feels like an exclusively Delta fuck up (and they know, given that they built a whole pop up for it). I fly United and American extremely frequently and never seen this. I have even booked Alaska basic economy that doesn't give you a seat and been given a free seat selection. Delta has been rapidly going downhill in recent years -- those that nerd out on air travel know exactly what I'm talking about.
    - hanzmanner 3y ago
      I expect these patters from all low-cost airlines, so fly Alaska whenever possible.
      - jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
        I used to fly between Portland and SF often and Alaska was the only airline that never screwed me.
  - steveBK123 3y ago
    That's an issue, and going from kayak to delta for same flight leads to same issue. I wonder if this is some bug/edge case for really close in flights? The example flight booking takes off 2 hours from now? Last time I ever tried to book a flight so close the online sales funnel was closed due to post-9/11 security restrictions. I think 2 hours is about as close as is even legal right? Can you replicate for a flight tomorrow / next week / next month?
    - hanzmanner 3y ago
      Urgency is one of the key motivators for using dark patterns. Wouldn't be surprised if Delta defaults to "1 seat available at this price" for all busy flights within X take off time regardless of the availability.
    - alwa 3y ago
      In my experience this replicates routinely for Delta Main Cabin fares for non-elites on leisure/non-corporate travel once only “Preferred Seats” are left in the economy cabin. What I think the other carriers do well is detect when there aren’t non-charged seats available for advance selection, and remind you that you can continue without paying for a specific seat and still be guaranteed a seat on day of departure. Delta hand out “free preferred seating” as a perk to all sorts of categories of traveler though. I wonder if that complicates the prospect of offering that kind of warning.
notahacker 3y ago
If it's Google Flights' pricing cache being out of date then that's not an airline dark pattern (Its also possible there is a website dark pattern designed to make an option to pay less by not choosing your seat really non-obvious: I've never booked with Delta) The airline would say it's your fault for getting a quote from an aggregator rather than direct from them though
- steveBK123 3y ago
  A low to negative economic Google product that is poorly supported, hard to imagine, right?
- hanzmanner 3y ago
  It's not. Delta shows me that there is 1 seat available at this price. Here are the screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/X923fSo https://imgur.com/a/X923fSo
  - alwa 3y ago
    To be fair, you can still purchase the ticket at the advertised price without selecting a specific “preferred” seat. They’ll give you a seat assignment at checkin or at the gate (usually one of those “preferred” ones). That said, the fact that this situation is unsurprising to me is itself probably evidence of the communication problem. Google could do a clearer job of qualifying the “free seat selection” they falsely promise for that fare, and Delta could do a much better job of saying “there are only paid seats left, but if you don’t want to buy one, you’ll still get one at the airport.” I feel like JetBlue used to do a good job with that.
    - steveBK123 3y ago
      I think in his case it's actually a legit website bug/issue. If you try to click through without choosing a seat it doesn't actually work on this particular sales funnel and pops up an error. My suspicion its something to do with it being a very close in flight (2 hours to takeoff). So you have selected a fare with seat selection included, but there are no seats actually left .. maybe some cache isn't updating at minute level frequency.
steveBK123 3y ago
Maybe Google Flights is the issue here? I always use Kayak. It shows you with little logos below the price if it includes seat selection, carry on and checked baggage. For a frequent NYC-MIA flight I take I ran a test. When I clicked through the first random AA price, and then the first random Delta price option I saw, it took me directly to each airline checkout at the exact price listed.
1000100_1000101 3y ago
The dark pattern here is that you don't actually have to choose a seat. You can click they disabled-button-colored continue button, click through the warning about not choosing a seat, and avoid paying for the seat choice cost (on each leg there and back). As a solo traveller, you may not care. As a family you really don't want to be seated away from your kids. If you don't pick seats, will you get seated together? Who knows. Depends on if enough other people who want to pay to pick seats leave enough seats together for you... on a popular flight, that's doubtful. So it's not just people choosing to pay for a luxury, it's a tax on people who don't know they can skip the step, and on families who may know, but can't roll the dice.

pb7 3y ago

Can you give me the exact dates and flight times so I can validate this?

hanzmanner 3y ago
Here is the specific Google Flight I selected: https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s/yYPhNC6aXX4VP5cj8 https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s/yYPhNC6aXX4VP5cj8 Here are the screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/X923fSo https://imgur.com/a/X923fSo
- pb7 3y ago
  I see, thanks. On an entirely different note, this feels like an exclusively Delta fuck up (and they know, given that they built a whole pop up for it). I fly United and American extremely frequently and never seen this. I have even booked Alaska basic economy that doesn't give you a seat and been given a free seat selection. Delta has been rapidly going downhill in recent years -- those that nerd out on air travel know exactly what I'm talking about.
  - hanzmanner 3y ago
    I expect these patters from all low-cost airlines, so fly Alaska whenever possible.
    - jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
      I used to fly between Portland and SF often and Alaska was the only airline that never screwed me.
- steveBK123 3y ago
  That's an issue, and going from kayak to delta for same flight leads to same issue. I wonder if this is some bug/edge case for really close in flights? The example flight booking takes off 2 hours from now? Last time I ever tried to book a flight so close the online sales funnel was closed due to post-9/11 security restrictions. I think 2 hours is about as close as is even legal right? Can you replicate for a flight tomorrow / next week / next month?
  - hanzmanner 3y ago
    Urgency is one of the key motivators for using dark patterns. Wouldn't be surprised if Delta defaults to "1 seat available at this price" for all busy flights within X take off time regardless of the availability.
  - alwa 3y ago
    In my experience this replicates routinely for Delta Main Cabin fares for non-elites on leisure/non-corporate travel once only “Preferred Seats” are left in the economy cabin. What I think the other carriers do well is detect when there aren’t non-charged seats available for advance selection, and remind you that you can continue without paying for a specific seat and still be guaranteed a seat on day of departure. Delta hand out “free preferred seating” as a perk to all sorts of categories of traveler though. I wonder if that complicates the prospect of offering that kind of warning.

notahacker 3y ago

If it's Google Flights' pricing cache being out of date then that's not an airline dark pattern (Its also possible there is a website dark pattern designed to make an option to pay less by not choosing your seat really non-obvious: I've never booked with Delta) The airline would say it's your fault for getting a quote from an aggregator rather than direct from them though

steveBK123 3y ago
A low to negative economic Google product that is poorly supported, hard to imagine, right?
hanzmanner 3y ago
It's not. Delta shows me that there is 1 seat available at this price. Here are the screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/X923fSo https://imgur.com/a/X923fSo
- alwa 3y ago
  To be fair, you can still purchase the ticket at the advertised price without selecting a specific “preferred” seat. They’ll give you a seat assignment at checkin or at the gate (usually one of those “preferred” ones). That said, the fact that this situation is unsurprising to me is itself probably evidence of the communication problem. Google could do a clearer job of qualifying the “free seat selection” they falsely promise for that fare, and Delta could do a much better job of saying “there are only paid seats left, but if you don’t want to buy one, you’ll still get one at the airport.” I feel like JetBlue used to do a good job with that.
  - steveBK123 3y ago
    I think in his case it's actually a legit website bug/issue. If you try to click through without choosing a seat it doesn't actually work on this particular sales funnel and pops up an error. My suspicion its something to do with it being a very close in flight (2 hours to takeoff). So you have selected a fare with seat selection included, but there are no seats actually left .. maybe some cache isn't updating at minute level frequency.

steveBK123 3y ago

Maybe Google Flights is the issue here? I always use Kayak. It shows you with little logos below the price if it includes seat selection, carry on and checked baggage. For a frequent NYC-MIA flight I take I ran a test. When I clicked through the first random AA price, and then the first random Delta price option I saw, it took me directly to each airline checkout at the exact price listed.

1000100_1000101 3y ago

The dark pattern here is that you don't actually have to choose a seat. You can click they disabled-button-colored continue button, click through the warning about not choosing a seat, and avoid paying for the seat choice cost (on each leg there and back). As a solo traveller, you may not care. As a family you really don't want to be seated away from your kids. If you don't pick seats, will you get seated together? Who knows. Depends on if enough other people who want to pay to pick seats leave enough seats together for you... on a popular flight, that's doubtful. So it's not just people choosing to pay for a luxury, it's a tax on people who don't know they can skip the step, and on families who may know, but can't roll the dice.