5 ms·

Right, why on Earth would anyone call making up new definitions of "seats left" and "lowest fare," changing the price based on purposely hidden variables and no

Right, why on Earth would anyone call making up new definitions of "seats left" and "lowest fare," changing the price based on purposely hidden variables and not admitting it, and tricking users into believing extra fees are necessary "lying?" I'm sure it's all clearly posted somewhere. It reminds me of a passage from a famous book of marketing advice: “But the plans were on display…” “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” “That’s the display department.” “With a flashlight.” “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” “So had the stairs.” “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”

hammock 3y ago
They always say “seats left at this price,” and the “lowest fare” is in the context of the current search results, which are individual, not in the context of all searches by everyone everywhere, which seems an unreasonable standard.
- hanzmanner 3y ago
  That doesn't capture the range of their dark patterns. I am literally testing this now. I am on Delta website going through the booking process (redirected form Google Flights). The price at Google Flights was $578. Delta website is showing that 1 seat is available (at this price). When it prompts to select the seat there are no seats available at this price. I am offered to upgrade to Comfort+ for $60. I am already 10 min into the process. And just to preempt your possible argument: when I go to the previous page it still shows that 1 seat is available at this price.
  - hammock 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - hanzmanner 3y ago
      For a tech forum it is surprising how many commenters in this thread don’t understand what are “dark patterns”. It’s not fraud. Of course eventually I will see the total cost. It’s about misleading the customer in the process. They don’t have to trick me into paying more, they just need to make me progress far enough that I will choose to pay more to save my own time.
    - happymellon 3y ago
      Bait and switch is a dark pattern.
    - parl_match 3y ago
      It is literally the definition of a dark pattern lmao whenver dark patterns come up, and people defend them, i always wonder to myself "who do you work for"
  - squeaky-clean 3y ago
    Google Flights runs on a cache, so it can be out of date. This is mentioned in their fine print somewhere. Delta's own website should be accurate though. I think this is actually legally required. If you can take some screenshots and contact customer support I guarantee you someone will get yelled at, and you may get some sort of compensation. I know this because I was once the person who would get yelled at (not for Delta). If you could include the time and your local timezone, as well as the market (your country or VPN country) that would help out the person who's going to get yelled at. Just to clarify, I say "yelled at" as a bit of an exaggeration. But these customer reports were always a big deal where I worked. It usually boiled down to a stale cache issue. But because the airline controls the cache and ticket inventory[0], cache invalidation should be perfect, sans a few ms latency. [0] Kind of... Not really. It's a mess how the systems really work. But they do get messages for each ticket purchase.
    - hanzmanner 3y ago
      I have shared the screenshots in this thread. https://imgur.com/a/X923fSo https://imgur.com/a/X923fSo I don't trust Delta enough to have any desire to reach out to them.
      - arcticbull 3y ago
        Your use of the word “seat” is overloaded - the one in fare search buys you passage on the plane. More formally we’d call that a ticket. That doesn’t mean you’ll be able to assign a seat during checkout if the ones available for complimentary assignment have already been assigned by others. And that’s not a problem, if you don’t care where specifically you sit. Once check-in opens you’ll be assigned a seat. Including from the inventory that normally requires you pay extra. Without an additional fee. If you do care where you sit you can elect to pay extra in advance. A “seat” in the search results is booking passage on the plane. You are looking at optional, complementary advance assignments. Those are taken at the moment. I hope that clears it up! I wouldn’t call this a dark pattern - some airlines like Southwest don’t even let you select seats at all! Some airlines require you pay a fee for any and all seats, mostly low-cost carriers. This is just an example of unbundling. If you value a specific seat assignment you can pay for it. If you don’t, no problem, your flight is cheaper.
consumer451 3y ago
Do the people who design these dark patterns get paid more than honest people? What are the LinkedIn keywords used to identify these roles? Is it along the lines of “growth hacking?” There has to be a name for this job and I am just too dumb and naive to know it at the moment. Help, please.
- godelski 3y ago
  I'm just going to quote hanzmanner (in the sibling's children's comment) > For a tech forum it is surprising how many commenters in this thread don’t understand what are “dark patterns” I think people just don't get it. Maybe because people just aren't thinking about how things couple and the interactions. Maybe because no one wants to be the bad guy so don't think too hard about it? There could be a lot of reasons. Could even be that people are more worried about job security so just deal with it.
  - consumer451 3y ago
    Fair enough. So how would someone brag about accomplishing this in their work history? I ask this as a simple man who is looking for a job, and who is contemplating words that go on resumes. Simplest: “increased division’s revenue in a complex and novel way?” Or, even simpler “implemented dynamic pricing?“
    - godelski 3y ago
      > So how would someone brag about accomplishing this in their work history? - Performed user studies that led to x% growth in product revenue I don't think there would be anything that would specifically flag a resume entry as the employee being the one to implement dark patterns, but I'm just guessing here. Because things like dynamic pricing or user studies aren't inherently wrong. Dark patterns are wrong because they're manipulations. The clearest example being raising prices and then discounting them back to the same price. Amazon does this as well as Walmart.
- acomjean 3y ago
  I interviewed at a travel company. One thing someone said they didn't like about working there was that they're customers are really the airline and hotel chains that pay them, and anything that closes the deal at a higher price is what they'd do. UX "improvements" tested with A/B testing for sales optimization.

hammock 3y ago

They always say “seats left at this price,” and the “lowest fare” is in the context of the current search results, which are individual, not in the context of all searches by everyone everywhere, which seems an unreasonable standard.

hanzmanner 3y ago
That doesn't capture the range of their dark patterns. I am literally testing this now. I am on Delta website going through the booking process (redirected form Google Flights). The price at Google Flights was $578. Delta website is showing that 1 seat is available (at this price). When it prompts to select the seat there are no seats available at this price. I am offered to upgrade to Comfort+ for $60. I am already 10 min into the process. And just to preempt your possible argument: when I go to the previous page it still shows that 1 seat is available at this price.
- hammock 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - hanzmanner 3y ago
    For a tech forum it is surprising how many commenters in this thread don’t understand what are “dark patterns”. It’s not fraud. Of course eventually I will see the total cost. It’s about misleading the customer in the process. They don’t have to trick me into paying more, they just need to make me progress far enough that I will choose to pay more to save my own time.
  - happymellon 3y ago
    Bait and switch is a dark pattern.
  - parl_match 3y ago
    It is literally the definition of a dark pattern lmao whenver dark patterns come up, and people defend them, i always wonder to myself "who do you work for"
- squeaky-clean 3y ago
  Google Flights runs on a cache, so it can be out of date. This is mentioned in their fine print somewhere. Delta's own website should be accurate though. I think this is actually legally required. If you can take some screenshots and contact customer support I guarantee you someone will get yelled at, and you may get some sort of compensation. I know this because I was once the person who would get yelled at (not for Delta). If you could include the time and your local timezone, as well as the market (your country or VPN country) that would help out the person who's going to get yelled at. Just to clarify, I say "yelled at" as a bit of an exaggeration. But these customer reports were always a big deal where I worked. It usually boiled down to a stale cache issue. But because the airline controls the cache and ticket inventory[0], cache invalidation should be perfect, sans a few ms latency. [0] Kind of... Not really. It's a mess how the systems really work. But they do get messages for each ticket purchase.
  - hanzmanner 3y ago
    I have shared the screenshots in this thread. https://imgur.com/a/X923fSo https://imgur.com/a/X923fSo I don't trust Delta enough to have any desire to reach out to them.
    - arcticbull 3y ago
      Your use of the word “seat” is overloaded - the one in fare search buys you passage on the plane. More formally we’d call that a ticket. That doesn’t mean you’ll be able to assign a seat during checkout if the ones available for complimentary assignment have already been assigned by others. And that’s not a problem, if you don’t care where specifically you sit. Once check-in opens you’ll be assigned a seat. Including from the inventory that normally requires you pay extra. Without an additional fee. If you do care where you sit you can elect to pay extra in advance. A “seat” in the search results is booking passage on the plane. You are looking at optional, complementary advance assignments. Those are taken at the moment. I hope that clears it up! I wouldn’t call this a dark pattern - some airlines like Southwest don’t even let you select seats at all! Some airlines require you pay a fee for any and all seats, mostly low-cost carriers. This is just an example of unbundling. If you value a specific seat assignment you can pay for it. If you don’t, no problem, your flight is cheaper.

consumer451 3y ago

Do the people who design these dark patterns get paid more than honest people? What are the LinkedIn keywords used to identify these roles? Is it along the lines of “growth hacking?” There has to be a name for this job and I am just too dumb and naive to know it at the moment. Help, please.

godelski 3y ago
I'm just going to quote hanzmanner (in the sibling's children's comment) > For a tech forum it is surprising how many commenters in this thread don’t understand what are “dark patterns” I think people just don't get it. Maybe because people just aren't thinking about how things couple and the interactions. Maybe because no one wants to be the bad guy so don't think too hard about it? There could be a lot of reasons. Could even be that people are more worried about job security so just deal with it.
- consumer451 3y ago
  Fair enough. So how would someone brag about accomplishing this in their work history? I ask this as a simple man who is looking for a job, and who is contemplating words that go on resumes. Simplest: “increased division’s revenue in a complex and novel way?” Or, even simpler “implemented dynamic pricing?“
  - godelski 3y ago
    > So how would someone brag about accomplishing this in their work history? - Performed user studies that led to x% growth in product revenue I don't think there would be anything that would specifically flag a resume entry as the employee being the one to implement dark patterns, but I'm just guessing here. Because things like dynamic pricing or user studies aren't inherently wrong. Dark patterns are wrong because they're manipulations. The clearest example being raising prices and then discounting them back to the same price. Amazon does this as well as Walmart.
acomjean 3y ago
I interviewed at a travel company. One thing someone said they didn't like about working there was that they're customers are really the airline and hotel chains that pay them, and anything that closes the deal at a higher price is what they'd do. UX "improvements" tested with A/B testing for sales optimization.