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This seems like a huge stretch of "dark pattern". Ultra low-cost airlines are pretty aggressive in upselling seat / baggage / food / fare class upgrades during

This seems like a huge stretch of "dark pattern". Ultra low-cost airlines are pretty aggressive in upselling seat / baggage / food / fare class upgrades during the checkout process. It is annoying to have no idea what a ticket will really end up costing when it pops up in Google Flights or whatever, but I don't think that's enough to call it a dark pattern since everything is clearly disclosed before you pay for anything. Airlines are very upfront about all the things you aren't getting with your ticket.

nickjj 3y ago
I haven't booked a flight in a while but any situation where I don't know the "final" cost of my ticket before I start the checkout process is a dark pattern in my book. I don't want to see a $100 ticket before I start the checkout process but end up seeing $200 on step 6 / 8 because if I want to sit down and carry a backpack with me it's an extra $100. That forces me to give them my data (I'm interested in a flight from X to Y, creating accounts, my address, etc.) even if I back out of the checkout process due to upsells. Compare that to seeing the final cost ahead of time before entering in any billing details and if you don't agree with the price you can use a competitor with better rates. There's no contest in how much better of an experience and outcome that is for customers.
- steveBK123 3y ago
  Not knowing if you paid to choose your seat or baggage at the time of checkout is a reading comprehension issue. There's a valid complaint that they all game what's included/excluded at the listing price so they sort better in the fare compare websites. But once you go through the sales funnel, if you read, its very clear what you are getting.
  - nickjj 3y ago
    It's not about reading comprehension or the lack of it. It's saying the list price is $100 but then you have to invest time and provide information during the checkout process only to find out on a much later step that the list price is no longer the price you were given. You're being lied to about the list price which makes it harder to compare prices at a glance and companies are preying on you through a form of "the sunk cost fallacy"[0] in that you're more likely to finish checking out because you've invested so much time already to get to step 6 / 8. [0]: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost_fallacy https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost_fallacy
    - HDThoreaun 3y ago
      This is not what airlines do though. The price on google flights is the exact price I pay to fly because I don't check bags or choose my seat. Just because other people do buy those things doesn't mean they have to or were tricked.
      - DangitBobby 3y ago
        Just because the trick doesn't work on you because you don't do what most people do doesn't make it not a trick.
steveBK123 3y ago
Right, I think airlines are a bad example of "dark pattern" and "junk fees" because ultimately the customers are the problem. Every airline that has tried the premium model in recent decades has failed. People have decided they've reserved the right to rock bottom fares and simultaneous complaints about quality of service. Or people have decided flying sucks no matter what airline they choose so they simply sort by price. Either way, dollars vote and this is the outcome.
- hanzmanner 3y ago
  I just tried to find a roundtrip flight from SF to LA on Google Flights. Spent some time comparing prices, different airports, etc. Ended up picking one option, click, click, click - I am on the airline's website. More clicks and I am able to select the seats: went through all available seating - there is nothing available at the price that was originally surfaced to me. I can either upgrade to Delta Comfort+ for +$60 or to First Class. Sure, I can go back to Google Flights and repeat the process. But I wasted 10 minutes already, and if I had a legitimate need to fly to LA I would have most likely just upgraded to Comfort+ to save time. Are you going to blame me - the customer - for this?
  - pb7 3y ago
    Can you give me the exact dates and flight times so I can validate this?
    - hanzmanner 3y ago
      Here is the specific Google Flight I selected: https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s/yYPhNC6aXX4VP5cj8 https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s/yYPhNC6aXX4VP5cj8 Here are the screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/X923fSo https://imgur.com/a/X923fSo
      - pb7 3y ago
        I see, thanks. On an entirely different note, this feels like an exclusively Delta fuck up (and they know, given that they built a whole pop up for it). I fly United and American extremely frequently and never seen this. I have even booked Alaska basic economy that doesn't give you a seat and been given a free seat selection. Delta has been rapidly going downhill in recent years -- those that nerd out on air travel know exactly what I'm talking about.
hanzmanner 3y ago
You might be looking for a different word here. A dark pattern is not fraud or outright lying. These are already illegal. Seeing the total price at the end of the purchasing process is the legal requirement for a sale. A classic example of a dark pattern is AirBnB. They (used to) show listing prices without all additional fees like cleaning, service fees, etc. So users would end up wasting a lot of time on finding the right offering to only later (yes, before checkout) realize that the total price is actually much higher. Users know how much they end up paying, it's not fraud. But this is still a dark pattern.
- mkipper 3y ago
  Well, I'd argue that you're looking for a different term, but obviously there's no concrete definition here. I don't think a dark pattern requires any fraud or lying. I think the most obvious example is having users opt in to something (e.g. sharing private data) by default and only offering the option to opt out by navigating some convoluted series of menus. You aren't explicitly lying to users and telling them they can't opt out, but you're going out of your way to make sure the option isn't advertised or easily accessible. In my opinion, there's a gap between that and what airlines and AirBnB do. I guess there's an element of deception with both, but airlines and AirBnB are just waving a nice number in front of your face to drive engagement. That doesn't personally meet my threshold, but I understand how it might meet yours.
- notahacker 3y ago
  For all that Booking.com has lots of annoying patterns like telling you how many people looked at a listing and that there's only two rooms (currently) available for those dates, I do like the fact the price I first see in the ranking is what I pay. Not least because the AirBNB fees usually seems to be how much more it costs to book with them if they have a listing for the same place.
  - shiroiuma 3y ago
    >Booking.com has lots of annoying patterns like telling you how many people looked at a listing and that there's only two rooms (currently) available for those dates Assuming they're not making up the data, why is this bad? If a hotel is very popular and almost sold-out, isn't that something useful to know when you're making reservations? Sure, it does feel a little high-pressure, but if it's truthful (normal "high pressure sales" tactics aren't, they create a false sense of urgency when in fact there's no shortage at all), it can be useful if you're trying to book a room at a popular place or during a peak time.

nickjj 3y ago

I haven't booked a flight in a while but any situation where I don't know the "final" cost of my ticket before I start the checkout process is a dark pattern in my book. I don't want to see a $100 ticket before I start the checkout process but end up seeing $200 on step 6 / 8 because if I want to sit down and carry a backpack with me it's an extra $100. That forces me to give them my data (I'm interested in a flight from X to Y, creating accounts, my address, etc.) even if I back out of the checkout process due to upsells. Compare that to seeing the final cost ahead of time before entering in any billing details and if you don't agree with the price you can use a competitor with better rates. There's no contest in how much better of an experience and outcome that is for customers.

steveBK123 3y ago
Not knowing if you paid to choose your seat or baggage at the time of checkout is a reading comprehension issue. There's a valid complaint that they all game what's included/excluded at the listing price so they sort better in the fare compare websites. But once you go through the sales funnel, if you read, its very clear what you are getting.
- nickjj 3y ago
  It's not about reading comprehension or the lack of it. It's saying the list price is $100 but then you have to invest time and provide information during the checkout process only to find out on a much later step that the list price is no longer the price you were given. You're being lied to about the list price which makes it harder to compare prices at a glance and companies are preying on you through a form of "the sunk cost fallacy"[0] in that you're more likely to finish checking out because you've invested so much time already to get to step 6 / 8. [0]: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost_fallacy https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost_fallacy
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    This is not what airlines do though. The price on google flights is the exact price I pay to fly because I don't check bags or choose my seat. Just because other people do buy those things doesn't mean they have to or were tricked.
    - DangitBobby 3y ago
      Just because the trick doesn't work on you because you don't do what most people do doesn't make it not a trick.

steveBK123 3y ago

Right, I think airlines are a bad example of "dark pattern" and "junk fees" because ultimately the customers are the problem. Every airline that has tried the premium model in recent decades has failed. People have decided they've reserved the right to rock bottom fares and simultaneous complaints about quality of service. Or people have decided flying sucks no matter what airline they choose so they simply sort by price. Either way, dollars vote and this is the outcome.

hanzmanner 3y ago
I just tried to find a roundtrip flight from SF to LA on Google Flights. Spent some time comparing prices, different airports, etc. Ended up picking one option, click, click, click - I am on the airline's website. More clicks and I am able to select the seats: went through all available seating - there is nothing available at the price that was originally surfaced to me. I can either upgrade to Delta Comfort+ for +$60 or to First Class. Sure, I can go back to Google Flights and repeat the process. But I wasted 10 minutes already, and if I had a legitimate need to fly to LA I would have most likely just upgraded to Comfort+ to save time. Are you going to blame me - the customer - for this?
- pb7 3y ago
  Can you give me the exact dates and flight times so I can validate this?
  - hanzmanner 3y ago
    Here is the specific Google Flight I selected: https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s/yYPhNC6aXX4VP5cj8 https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s/yYPhNC6aXX4VP5cj8 Here are the screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/X923fSo https://imgur.com/a/X923fSo
    - pb7 3y ago
      I see, thanks. On an entirely different note, this feels like an exclusively Delta fuck up (and they know, given that they built a whole pop up for it). I fly United and American extremely frequently and never seen this. I have even booked Alaska basic economy that doesn't give you a seat and been given a free seat selection. Delta has been rapidly going downhill in recent years -- those that nerd out on air travel know exactly what I'm talking about.

hanzmanner 3y ago

You might be looking for a different word here. A dark pattern is not fraud or outright lying. These are already illegal. Seeing the total price at the end of the purchasing process is the legal requirement for a sale. A classic example of a dark pattern is AirBnB. They (used to) show listing prices without all additional fees like cleaning, service fees, etc. So users would end up wasting a lot of time on finding the right offering to only later (yes, before checkout) realize that the total price is actually much higher. Users know how much they end up paying, it's not fraud. But this is still a dark pattern.

mkipper 3y ago
Well, I'd argue that you're looking for a different term, but obviously there's no concrete definition here. I don't think a dark pattern requires any fraud or lying. I think the most obvious example is having users opt in to something (e.g. sharing private data) by default and only offering the option to opt out by navigating some convoluted series of menus. You aren't explicitly lying to users and telling them they can't opt out, but you're going out of your way to make sure the option isn't advertised or easily accessible. In my opinion, there's a gap between that and what airlines and AirBnB do. I guess there's an element of deception with both, but airlines and AirBnB are just waving a nice number in front of your face to drive engagement. That doesn't personally meet my threshold, but I understand how it might meet yours.
notahacker 3y ago
For all that Booking.com has lots of annoying patterns like telling you how many people looked at a listing and that there's only two rooms (currently) available for those dates, I do like the fact the price I first see in the ranking is what I pay. Not least because the AirBNB fees usually seems to be how much more it costs to book with them if they have a listing for the same place.
- shiroiuma 3y ago
  >Booking.com has lots of annoying patterns like telling you how many people looked at a listing and that there's only two rooms (currently) available for those dates Assuming they're not making up the data, why is this bad? If a hotel is very popular and almost sold-out, isn't that something useful to know when you're making reservations? Sure, it does feel a little high-pressure, but if it's truthful (normal "high pressure sales" tactics aren't, they create a false sense of urgency when in fact there's no shortage at all), it can be useful if you're trying to book a room at a popular place or during a peak time.