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> There is no doubt that that these companies were lying to me. They're not lying to you, the 'number of seats left' refers to the number of seats available at

> There is no doubt that that these companies were lying to me. They're not lying to you, the 'number of seats left' refers to the number of seats available at that price - in the lowest available fare bucket. Not on the plane itself. What you ran into are called point of sale restrictions. Lower fares are made available to people buying in different markets. They don't really work on auctions, they charge everyone what they think they'll pay.

93po 3y ago
If something is that confusing and misleading then it’s still dishonesty
photonbeam 3y ago
If the recipient is deceived, its a lie, regardless of weasel words
- arcticbull 3y ago
  Who's been deceived? You were offered a price, and you can pay it or not pay it. If you pay it you get your ticket. I don't really understand what the deception is. Is it any more of a deception than someone who comes into a store with a coupon getting 10% off, while you, without a coupon pays full price? Or any more of a deception than Target charging higher prices at outlets in SF and NY than they do in Texas? Or not telling you how many more of an item is around back?
  - photonbeam 3y ago
    The person who was pressured by the false statements of ticket scarcity
    - arcticbull 3y ago
      They're not saying there's only that many seats left on the plane - you can get a sense of that by pulling up the seat map. They're saying there's only that many seats left at that price point. It's incumbent on the buyer to know that I think. That information is not hidden.
      - jbverschoor 3y ago
        Which is a useless statement with dynamic pricing. It's ONLY there to put pressure on the visitor.
        arcticbull 3y ago
        It provides information to the searcher. If I'm looking, I generally search for 1 seat, even if I eventually plan to book for a few people. It's useful for me to know how many people I can book at that price point.
      - snthd 3y ago
        >They're saying there's only that many seats left at that price point. ...which is a lie. If the tickets stop selling the price will drop. If there's a signal indicating a future spike in demand they will jack up the price irrespective of sales.
        arcticbull 3y ago
        It might, or it might not go down in response to a lack of sales. Some airlines continue to segment their customers by elastic vs. inelastic demand. As departure date approaches their customer mix changes, and it might make sense to raise prices instead of lower them even if it leads to unsold inventory. After all there's a secondary market for unsold inventory - frequent flyer mile redemptions. Its not as cut and dried as you're making it out to be. It is accurate at the time presented. You can buy N seats for $X each, before the next seat is more expensive. That's all you can really ask.
  - godelski 3y ago
    Let's say that you and I each buy an airline ticket. We're sitting in the same coffee shop and buying it at the same time from the same airline provider. We're both buying the cheapest ticket available. Let's make even another assumption! Suppose we can buy the same ticket! Would you find it deceitful if we were shown different prices?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- hammock 3y ago
  Stop lying
Miraste 3y ago
Right, why on Earth would anyone call making up new definitions of "seats left" and "lowest fare," changing the price based on purposely hidden variables and not admitting it, and tricking users into believing extra fees are necessary "lying?" I'm sure it's all clearly posted somewhere. It reminds me of a passage from a famous book of marketing advice: “But the plans were on display…” “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” “That’s the display department.” “With a flashlight.” “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” “So had the stairs.” “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”
- hammock 3y ago
  They always say “seats left at this price,” and the “lowest fare” is in the context of the current search results, which are individual, not in the context of all searches by everyone everywhere, which seems an unreasonable standard.
  - hanzmanner 3y ago
    That doesn't capture the range of their dark patterns. I am literally testing this now. I am on Delta website going through the booking process (redirected form Google Flights). The price at Google Flights was $578. Delta website is showing that 1 seat is available (at this price). When it prompts to select the seat there are no seats available at this price. I am offered to upgrade to Comfort+ for $60. I am already 10 min into the process. And just to preempt your possible argument: when I go to the previous page it still shows that 1 seat is available at this price.
    - hammock 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - hanzmanner 3y ago
        For a tech forum it is surprising how many commenters in this thread don’t understand what are “dark patterns”. It’s not fraud. Of course eventually I will see the total cost. It’s about misleading the customer in the process. They don’t have to trick me into paying more, they just need to make me progress far enough that I will choose to pay more to save my own time.
kelseyfrog 3y ago
A bit more generally, they also ran into dynamic pricing or as it existed in every transaction before the 1870s, namely haggling. It was only after the rather recent invention of the price tag that consumers themselves were commodified which always involves a level of abstraction and smoothing over of differences, in this case, by price. Make no mistake, the reason it feels deceptive is that "Bargaining is always adversarial."[1] When one's economic milieu is the egalitarianism of being equal before price, of course bargaining feels deceptive, slimy, and wrong. 1. Bill Sanders, Frank Mobus, Creative Conflict: A Practical Guide for Business Negotiators, Harvard Business Press,2021
- tomrod 3y ago
  An unnecessarily kind way to coat the dark pattern that fuzzes the BATNA.
- jtbayly 3y ago
  If I was able to haggle I might not have such a problem with it. But this cannot possibly be called haggling, as there is no ability to communicate with somebody and make a counter-offer.
  - kelseyfrog 3y ago
    You're haggling with a system and on its terms. One of those ways of communicating is setting your location via VPN. This is just what it feels like to haggle with a non-human system. Would that we weren't required to set aside our own humanity to do this, but this is haggling for a more inhuman age.
- jowea 3y ago
  You can't really haggle with a computer system can you? And even if we'd accept that as haggling the company has way more power in the transaction. This just seems allowing the company to capture ever more of the consumer surplus.
  - listenallyall 3y ago
coherentpony 3y ago
> They're not lying to you That's correct. But it's correct in the sense of "technically correct". It's a language-lawyer type of correct that nobody actually expects when communicating in plain English. Yes, they're not lying to me. They're simply being intentionally and willfully misleading. When I was 8 and my parents asked, "Have you brushed your teeth?" to which I responded, "Yes." What they're really asking is, "Did you brush _all_ of your teeth?" and not, "Did you brush at least two of your teeth?" I answered that latter question. And I thought I was the smartest person in the world when I did.
- bch 3y ago
  Parents> “Have you brushed your teeth?” 8yo> “Yes” (last week)
- jbverschoor 3y ago
  It's misrepresentation
- shaan7 3y ago
  Did you eventually make a career in law? :D
  - coherentpony 3y ago
    No, I'm a software engineer.
    - Swizec 3y ago
      Software engineer is like a lawyer for JSON
      - bee_rider 3y ago
        Considering the possible alternative names for programmers: Software Lawyer: we’ve got a code that ought to be well defined and straightforward to interpret, but a bunch of legacy rules have made it impossible to predict what anything really means without studying the system in great depth Software Doctor: We’re trying usually trying to fix an absurd system ridden mysterious bugs while keeping it running. How it got into the state it is basically impossible to understand, it looks like they’ve just used parts for purposes totally unrelated to their intended use (the spine is totally in the wrong orientation). Software Engineer: There is a rigid schedule posted on a board somewhere, but we’ve gone totally off the rails and have no chance of hitting any of those timelines.
_zoltan_ 3y ago
why are you defending the shitty airline tactics?

93po 3y ago

If something is that confusing and misleading then it’s still dishonesty

photonbeam 3y ago

If the recipient is deceived, its a lie, regardless of weasel words

arcticbull 3y ago
Who's been deceived? You were offered a price, and you can pay it or not pay it. If you pay it you get your ticket. I don't really understand what the deception is. Is it any more of a deception than someone who comes into a store with a coupon getting 10% off, while you, without a coupon pays full price? Or any more of a deception than Target charging higher prices at outlets in SF and NY than they do in Texas? Or not telling you how many more of an item is around back?
- photonbeam 3y ago
  The person who was pressured by the false statements of ticket scarcity
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    They're not saying there's only that many seats left on the plane - you can get a sense of that by pulling up the seat map. They're saying there's only that many seats left at that price point. It's incumbent on the buyer to know that I think. That information is not hidden.
    - jbverschoor 3y ago
      Which is a useless statement with dynamic pricing. It's ONLY there to put pressure on the visitor.
      - arcticbull 3y ago
        It provides information to the searcher. If I'm looking, I generally search for 1 seat, even if I eventually plan to book for a few people. It's useful for me to know how many people I can book at that price point.
    - snthd 3y ago
      >They're saying there's only that many seats left at that price point. ...which is a lie. If the tickets stop selling the price will drop. If there's a signal indicating a future spike in demand they will jack up the price irrespective of sales.
      - arcticbull 3y ago
        It might, or it might not go down in response to a lack of sales. Some airlines continue to segment their customers by elastic vs. inelastic demand. As departure date approaches their customer mix changes, and it might make sense to raise prices instead of lower them even if it leads to unsold inventory. After all there's a secondary market for unsold inventory - frequent flyer mile redemptions. Its not as cut and dried as you're making it out to be. It is accurate at the time presented. You can buy N seats for $X each, before the next seat is more expensive. That's all you can really ask.
- godelski 3y ago
  Let's say that you and I each buy an airline ticket. We're sitting in the same coffee shop and buying it at the same time from the same airline provider. We're both buying the cheapest ticket available. Let's make even another assumption! Suppose we can buy the same ticket! Would you find it deceitful if we were shown different prices?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
hammock 3y ago
Stop lying

Miraste 3y ago

Right, why on Earth would anyone call making up new definitions of "seats left" and "lowest fare," changing the price based on purposely hidden variables and not admitting it, and tricking users into believing extra fees are necessary "lying?" I'm sure it's all clearly posted somewhere. It reminds me of a passage from a famous book of marketing advice: “But the plans were on display…” “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” “That’s the display department.” “With a flashlight.” “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” “So had the stairs.” “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”

hammock 3y ago
They always say “seats left at this price,” and the “lowest fare” is in the context of the current search results, which are individual, not in the context of all searches by everyone everywhere, which seems an unreasonable standard.
- hanzmanner 3y ago
  That doesn't capture the range of their dark patterns. I am literally testing this now. I am on Delta website going through the booking process (redirected form Google Flights). The price at Google Flights was $578. Delta website is showing that 1 seat is available (at this price). When it prompts to select the seat there are no seats available at this price. I am offered to upgrade to Comfort+ for $60. I am already 10 min into the process. And just to preempt your possible argument: when I go to the previous page it still shows that 1 seat is available at this price.
  - hammock 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - hanzmanner 3y ago
      For a tech forum it is surprising how many commenters in this thread don’t understand what are “dark patterns”. It’s not fraud. Of course eventually I will see the total cost. It’s about misleading the customer in the process. They don’t have to trick me into paying more, they just need to make me progress far enough that I will choose to pay more to save my own time.

kelseyfrog 3y ago

A bit more generally, they also ran into dynamic pricing or as it existed in every transaction before the 1870s, namely haggling. It was only after the rather recent invention of the price tag that consumers themselves were commodified which always involves a level of abstraction and smoothing over of differences, in this case, by price. Make no mistake, the reason it feels deceptive is that "Bargaining is always adversarial."[1] When one's economic milieu is the egalitarianism of being equal before price, of course bargaining feels deceptive, slimy, and wrong. 1. Bill Sanders, Frank Mobus, Creative Conflict: A Practical Guide for Business Negotiators, Harvard Business Press,2021

tomrod 3y ago
An unnecessarily kind way to coat the dark pattern that fuzzes the BATNA.
jtbayly 3y ago
If I was able to haggle I might not have such a problem with it. But this cannot possibly be called haggling, as there is no ability to communicate with somebody and make a counter-offer.
- kelseyfrog 3y ago
  You're haggling with a system and on its terms. One of those ways of communicating is setting your location via VPN. This is just what it feels like to haggle with a non-human system. Would that we weren't required to set aside our own humanity to do this, but this is haggling for a more inhuman age.
jowea 3y ago
You can't really haggle with a computer system can you? And even if we'd accept that as haggling the company has way more power in the transaction. This just seems allowing the company to capture ever more of the consumer surplus.
- listenallyall 3y ago

coherentpony 3y ago

> They're not lying to you That's correct. But it's correct in the sense of "technically correct". It's a language-lawyer type of correct that nobody actually expects when communicating in plain English. Yes, they're not lying to me. They're simply being intentionally and willfully misleading. When I was 8 and my parents asked, "Have you brushed your teeth?" to which I responded, "Yes." What they're really asking is, "Did you brush _all_ of your teeth?" and not, "Did you brush at least two of your teeth?" I answered that latter question. And I thought I was the smartest person in the world when I did.

bch 3y ago
Parents> “Have you brushed your teeth?” 8yo> “Yes” (last week)
jbverschoor 3y ago
It's misrepresentation
shaan7 3y ago
Did you eventually make a career in law? :D
- coherentpony 3y ago
  No, I'm a software engineer.
  - Swizec 3y ago
    Software engineer is like a lawyer for JSON
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      Considering the possible alternative names for programmers: Software Lawyer: we’ve got a code that ought to be well defined and straightforward to interpret, but a bunch of legacy rules have made it impossible to predict what anything really means without studying the system in great depth Software Doctor: We’re trying usually trying to fix an absurd system ridden mysterious bugs while keeping it running. How it got into the state it is basically impossible to understand, it looks like they’ve just used parts for purposes totally unrelated to their intended use (the spine is totally in the wrong orientation). Software Engineer: There is a rigid schedule posted on a board somewhere, but we’ve gone totally off the rails and have no chance of hitting any of those timelines.

_zoltan_ 3y ago

why are you defending the shitty airline tactics?