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Yes, but _why_ are they poor? This is the thing that bothers me about this conversation more than anything. It's like giving pain killers to someone who has pa

Yes, but _why_ are they poor? This is the thing that bothers me about this conversation more than anything. It's like giving pain killers to someone who has pain—in some cases that may be the only real solution but arguably the vast, VAST majority of the time, there is a basic desire to do the same thing repeatedly hoping for a different outcome. Giving money to people who aren't willing to change only perpetuates the problem. It's enabling them. Many people who were "formerly poor" will repeat the saying ad nauseam: poverty is a mindset. You can't "fix" poverty with money because money won't change their mind or their hearts. IME, only small embedded organizations are good at helping folks out of this cycle. Because they are small, they know the area, they know the people, they know the cycle and they actually help people get out of that cycle.

malfist 3y ago
Given the conservative, punish the poor, attitude of your post, I really don't think you want to know why the poor are poor. I'll give you a hint, look at wealth distribution graphs
- FredPret 3y ago
  I think lots of conservatives desperately want to help the poor, just not in ways that might seem kind & empathetic to you. Don’t confuse tough love with no love - many people simply don’t think welfare is going to actually help.
  - maedayx 3y ago
    But as we've seen time and again, those people are wrong. Giving people money helps, period. So either these people are simply ignoring facts, or they are not participating in good faith.
    - FredPret 3y ago
      …or they disagree with you. Only in a bubble can complex facts seem so clear-cut. I, for one, don’t agree that “we’ve seen time and time again” that cash handouts help.
      - malfist 3y ago
        You're welcome to disagree, but that doesn't change the facts.
        FredPret 3y ago
        I could say the same to you. Political progress can be made only through meeting in the middle and negotiation, not by finger-pointing and accusing the opposition of being wrong. There's a reason millions of reasonable adults disagree with you (and who agree with you) - the truth is not clear-cut and complex and presents many seemingly contrary facts.
  - lapcat 3y ago
    > Don’t confuse tough love with no love The attitude that poor people need "tough love" is extremely condescending, so yes, it's difficult to distinguish tough love from no love. > many people simply don’t think welfare is going to actually help. The article argues that this belief is not based on the empirical evidence. I suspect that this belief is actually the result of a condescending attitude toward poor people rather than the cause of so-called "tough love" policies.
    - Wieldable4640 3y ago
      It seems to flow from the idea that “might makes right”, but you replace might with money. If you make money you’re doing well. That idea can be extended to imply that being poor means you’ve done something wrong. To me it echoes feudalist ideas like divine rule. The king deserved to be king, otherwise God would not have allowed him to be king. Therefore the king must be good. In my opinion this way of thinking is formed by looking at existing hierarchies and retroactively defining morality based on those hierarchies. Which then leads to the idea that poor people must be poor because of something they did, how could the hierarchy exist otherwise? This line of thinking also leads to the opinion that rich people do better, which does not consider that poor people might be doing the best they can under their circumstances, even if it is not the optimal strategy.
  - shuntress 3y ago
    "Tough Love" would be some kind of "Three Strikes" type of deal where your UBI is cut off if you consistently fail to demonstrate some sort of basic function. What you are alluding to is a "no love" stance (the standard conservative viewpoint). The idea that everyone should be able to "bootstrap" themselves out of poverty.
    - malfist 3y ago
      "Three Strikes" and you deserve to starve? Seems a little harsh.
      - shuntress 3y ago
        Yeah. It is a little too harsh. The point of my comment was that the standard conservative's stance of "No strikes and you deserve to starve" is more than a little too harsh.
themoonisachees 3y ago
So? Surely not all poor people have a "desire" to be poor (nobody wants to but I get the point of your post is maybe some people want to take actions that make them poor), and should we not help them? Furthermore, don't you think that the behaviours of the people who "want" to be poor are such because they can't afford nice things and turn to cheaper and more destructive forms of escapism, such as drugs? You make it seem like we shouldn't give painkillers to people in pain because some people do stupid things that cause them pain. But the fact of the matter is that giving the money currently spent on poverty (because we do in fact spend a _lot_ of money on poverty) to the poor people directly is more efficient. They, again and again, make more out of a dollar than that dollar would have made if it were spent on, say, food banks. If the case for empathy doesn't work for you (and clearly it doesn't) then surely the case for efficiency of government spending should?
jamilton 3y ago
The poor are poor because they don't have money. If you give them money, they will no longer be poor, QED. I say that somewhat jokingly, but I think it's basically true. AFAIK welfare/basic income studies have shown that giving people money directly tends to work really well for increasing their life quality long-term, even long after the payments end. I don't know on what basis you think the vast majority of poor people are poor because of a poverty mindset/being financially irresponsible.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
datadrivenangel 3y ago
The vast majority of the times people should use painkillers are for temporary injuries that will stop hurting in time. Helping people through this is good. Likewise, for people who have chronic pain, if we have the capacity to help ease their pain, we should do that. The question of what to do with the people who are enabled to avoid the work required to eliminate the source of their pain is a hard one, but I don't think that threatening people with starvation and homelessness is something we should aspire towards.
corpMaverick 3y ago
Poor people are overwhelmed by an endless list problems that are not a problem for us. A car breaking down or a kid getting a stomachache is a huge deal since they have no leeway at all, they cannot miss work days, they have to think carefully even about every little purchase, like groceries, etc. Their decision making becomes impaired. They are drowning in problems, and cannot see beyond the very short term. Having a little help like the child tax credits allows them to get their head of the water and make better decisions for the medium and long term. (like improve their education, take better care of their kids, etc.)
mckn1ght 3y ago
> Many people who were "formerly poor" will repeat the saying ad nauseam: poverty is a mindset. Sounds like survivorship bias. How many chronically poor think that?

malfist 3y ago

Given the conservative, punish the poor, attitude of your post, I really don't think you want to know why the poor are poor. I'll give you a hint, look at wealth distribution graphs

FredPret 3y ago
I think lots of conservatives desperately want to help the poor, just not in ways that might seem kind & empathetic to you. Don’t confuse tough love with no love - many people simply don’t think welfare is going to actually help.
- maedayx 3y ago
  But as we've seen time and again, those people are wrong. Giving people money helps, period. So either these people are simply ignoring facts, or they are not participating in good faith.
  - FredPret 3y ago
    …or they disagree with you. Only in a bubble can complex facts seem so clear-cut. I, for one, don’t agree that “we’ve seen time and time again” that cash handouts help.
    - malfist 3y ago
      You're welcome to disagree, but that doesn't change the facts.
      - FredPret 3y ago
        I could say the same to you. Political progress can be made only through meeting in the middle and negotiation, not by finger-pointing and accusing the opposition of being wrong. There's a reason millions of reasonable adults disagree with you (and who agree with you) - the truth is not clear-cut and complex and presents many seemingly contrary facts.
- lapcat 3y ago
  > Don’t confuse tough love with no love The attitude that poor people need "tough love" is extremely condescending, so yes, it's difficult to distinguish tough love from no love. > many people simply don’t think welfare is going to actually help. The article argues that this belief is not based on the empirical evidence. I suspect that this belief is actually the result of a condescending attitude toward poor people rather than the cause of so-called "tough love" policies.
  - Wieldable4640 3y ago
    It seems to flow from the idea that “might makes right”, but you replace might with money. If you make money you’re doing well. That idea can be extended to imply that being poor means you’ve done something wrong. To me it echoes feudalist ideas like divine rule. The king deserved to be king, otherwise God would not have allowed him to be king. Therefore the king must be good. In my opinion this way of thinking is formed by looking at existing hierarchies and retroactively defining morality based on those hierarchies. Which then leads to the idea that poor people must be poor because of something they did, how could the hierarchy exist otherwise? This line of thinking also leads to the opinion that rich people do better, which does not consider that poor people might be doing the best they can under their circumstances, even if it is not the optimal strategy.
- shuntress 3y ago
  "Tough Love" would be some kind of "Three Strikes" type of deal where your UBI is cut off if you consistently fail to demonstrate some sort of basic function. What you are alluding to is a "no love" stance (the standard conservative viewpoint). The idea that everyone should be able to "bootstrap" themselves out of poverty.
  - malfist 3y ago
    "Three Strikes" and you deserve to starve? Seems a little harsh.
    - shuntress 3y ago
      Yeah. It is a little too harsh. The point of my comment was that the standard conservative's stance of "No strikes and you deserve to starve" is more than a little too harsh.

themoonisachees 3y ago

So? Surely not all poor people have a "desire" to be poor (nobody wants to but I get the point of your post is maybe some people want to take actions that make them poor), and should we not help them? Furthermore, don't you think that the behaviours of the people who "want" to be poor are such because they can't afford nice things and turn to cheaper and more destructive forms of escapism, such as drugs? You make it seem like we shouldn't give painkillers to people in pain because some people do stupid things that cause them pain. But the fact of the matter is that giving the money currently spent on poverty (because we do in fact spend a _lot_ of money on poverty) to the poor people directly is more efficient. They, again and again, make more out of a dollar than that dollar would have made if it were spent on, say, food banks. If the case for empathy doesn't work for you (and clearly it doesn't) then surely the case for efficiency of government spending should?

jamilton 3y ago

The poor are poor because they don't have money. If you give them money, they will no longer be poor, QED. I say that somewhat jokingly, but I think it's basically true. AFAIK welfare/basic income studies have shown that giving people money directly tends to work really well for increasing their life quality long-term, even long after the payments end. I don't know on what basis you think the vast majority of poor people are poor because of a poverty mindset/being financially irresponsible.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

datadrivenangel 3y ago

The vast majority of the times people should use painkillers are for temporary injuries that will stop hurting in time. Helping people through this is good. Likewise, for people who have chronic pain, if we have the capacity to help ease their pain, we should do that. The question of what to do with the people who are enabled to avoid the work required to eliminate the source of their pain is a hard one, but I don't think that threatening people with starvation and homelessness is something we should aspire towards.

corpMaverick 3y ago

Poor people are overwhelmed by an endless list problems that are not a problem for us. A car breaking down or a kid getting a stomachache is a huge deal since they have no leeway at all, they cannot miss work days, they have to think carefully even about every little purchase, like groceries, etc. Their decision making becomes impaired. They are drowning in problems, and cannot see beyond the very short term. Having a little help like the child tax credits allows them to get their head of the water and make better decisions for the medium and long term. (like improve their education, take better care of their kids, etc.)

mckn1ght 3y ago

> Many people who were "formerly poor" will repeat the saying ad nauseam: poverty is a mindset. Sounds like survivorship bias. How many chronically poor think that?