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No they haven't. That convenient mistranslation is widely reported because it suits the narrative of the major political powers [1]. They've essentially said t

by justsee 15y ago

No they haven't. That convenient mistranslation is widely reported because it suits the narrative of the major political powers [1]. They've essentially said the current political regime in Israel must / will disappear. However that sentiment is less useful if your aim is to portray the Iranian state as an aggressive, modern-day Nazi regime though. Anyway that aim (essentially portraying Iran as a country dedicated to the extermination of Jews in the Middle East) completely falls apart in the mind of anyone who cares to review the facts: Iran houses the largest population of Jews in the Middle East outside Israel, with population estimates ranging between 30,000 and 90,000 people (most sources put it at 75 000) [2], and they are represented in the Iranian parliament. The current Iranian regime is certainly terrible, and can and should be condemned for many reasons, but pushing the notion that Iran threatens Israel with genocide is pr-fueled nonsense. Useless for intelligent discussion, but handy for manipulating public opinion. [1] http://www.counterpunch.org/2006/08/28/putting-words-in-ahmadinejad-s-mouth/ http://www.counterpunch.org/2006/08/28/putting-words-in-ahma... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews

tkahn6 15y ago
The Ayatollah recently called Israel a cancer that must be cut out.
wolf550e 15y ago
He said the State of Israel has no right to exist and that regime must vanish. [1] I think that is clear enough. The USA and the USSR exchanged similar messages, and also funded proxy wars against each other. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel#.22Wiped_off_the_map.22_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel#...
- kristopolous 15y ago
  You either see Israel as an intentionally aggressive religiously driven racist (different license plates, voting laws, roads, id cards, laws) nuclear state with a colorful history of terrorism, espionage, invasions, spying, and assassination convictions in multiple countries, or you choose to ignore all of history and blindly support it. Either way, please stop acting surprised when people claim Israels' foreign policy is antagonistic, as if her detractors are mistaken and fabricating... as if Chomsky and Kofi Anaan are liars...
  - wolf550e 15y ago
    You don't like Israel, fine. To what in my post do you object? How do I act surprised? BTW, the _government_ of Israel has never been religiously driven, rather it has always been security conscious. The racism, nuclear deterrent, invasions, and assassinations are all a result of security policy (what do you call terrorism?). Condemning countries for espionage/spying (twice!) is kinda strange - all countries engage in espionage. The most egregious, in both this respect and invasions is the US. Do you perchance live on land stolen from Mexico or the American Natives? Enjoying a standard of living dependent on world wide projection of military power? Even if you don't, I think Israel receives a disproportionate amount of criticism for the amount of evil it does.
    - kristopolous 15y ago
      Israel was founded by Lehi, Irgun, and Haganah. The evacuation plan which led to the population growth of Israel was invented by Irgun commander Ze'ev Jabotinsky. The sixth prime minister of Israel, Menachem Begin, was also a commander in Irgun. Irgun and Lehi led to Herut, which is now the modern controlling Likud party in Israel. Lehi also had Yitzhak Shamir who became prime minister in the 1980s. Lehi is famous for the Ankara document which proposed a pact with Nazi Germany to help start a totalitarian state (their words) in Palestine, to fulfill Zionism. They sponsored multiple sabotage and espionage operations against the British and in the Middle East. They were instrumental later in the invasion of Iran in 1942. Lehi assassinated politicians in Britain and was described as a terrorist organization by the British authorities. Irgun is an even easier case to make. Its motto: a hand holding a rifle with the words "only thus" underneath it. It was self-described as a terrorist organization by spokespeople from it at the time (1940s) and openly spoke of terrorism as the only effective way for a Zionist state. So yes, Israel exists because of terrorism and is deeply rooted in it at a fundamental basis. The whole point is that to point out that the current political manifestation known as Israel is a danger for the geopolitical stability of the region is actually a valid observation that historians will see as clear as day in 500 years. I know how politically unwise it is currently, but that doesn't make the reality false. There's lots of bitter pills out there.
      - 15y ago
The_Fox 15y ago
Your CounterPunch source seems to have quite an agenda. It goes on to claim that Iran has no nuclear weapons program at all- a claim that is not well supported by all the things we see Iran doing. Even if the article is correct, Ahmadinejad has said things like "this regime that is occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time" and "I have no doubt that the new movement taking place in our dear Palestine is a wave of morality which is spanning the entire Islamic world and which will soon remove this stain of disgrace from the Islamic world." The simplest interpretation of these statements is that Ahmadinejad strongly supports military action against Israel. (Unless you think Ahmadinejad is talking about a more peaceful way for Israel to "vanish from the page of time?") Also: who cares if Iran has a Jewish population? That doesn't mean Ahmadinejad isn't a threat to Israel.
- justsee 15y ago
  > Also: who cares if Iran has a Jewish population? It's a simple fact to illustrate that Iran is not bent on destruction of the Jewish people. Cultivating that idea in the public mind is the aim of that mistranslation, because the false idea of a genocidal Iran garners more worldwide support for the Israeli Government. > That doesn't mean Ahmadinejad isn't a threat to Israel. The only people threatened in any serious way by the Iranian regime are the Iranian people themselves. The idea that Iran poses a threat to Israel or the West is merely the public story to garner support for any military action. Iran is surrounded by the largest military super-power in history, and has a hostile and aggressive neighbour who is armed with a significant number of nuclear weapons. Iran's military posture is defensive, and all serious military analysis does not regard Iran as a threat. A politician talking things up for a domestic audience does not qualify as a serious threat, but it certainly helps feed into a narrative for Western audiences. The nuclear ambitions of Iran are also clearly defensive. North Korea remains untouched where Iran's neighbour Iraq is completely overrun. Obtaining nuclear-power status delivers much more political leverage, but that's it. Iran's leaders know any move to aggression would quickly result in military annhilation by Israel / US.
  - tkahn6 15y ago
    > Iran's military posture is defensive Iran has insurgents and clerics in Iraq actively attacking Sunni civilians and Saudi-backed militias and NATO soldiers. Iran sends weapons and money to Hamas in Gaza. Iran funds and sends weapons to Hezbollah, a paramilitary and political organization that has metastasized in Lebanon, accused of assassinating the Lebanese president. Iran sends weapons and money to Bashar Al-Assad in Syria. Can you explain what is to be gained by pushing apologist rhetoric for the Iranian regime? I'm genuinely curious to know what you personally gain or what is gained 'in the abstract' by sugar-coating Iran's international ambitions. There seems to be a certain faction within the left that is very bent on this mission and I'm hoping you can explain the rationale behind it.
nivertech 15y ago
The Jewish and Armenian members of Parlament are just puppets. Iranian regime only tolerate tiny minorities, because they do not represent any threat, while large minorities like Azeris and Kurds are forcefully iranized and denied any signs of cultural and ethnic autonomy.

by justsee 15y ago

tkahn6 15y ago

The Ayatollah recently called Israel a cancer that must be cut out.

wolf550e 15y ago

He said the State of Israel has no right to exist and that regime must vanish. [1] I think that is clear enough. The USA and the USSR exchanged similar messages, and also funded proxy wars against each other. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel#.22Wiped_off_the_map.22_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel#...

kristopolous 15y ago
You either see Israel as an intentionally aggressive religiously driven racist (different license plates, voting laws, roads, id cards, laws) nuclear state with a colorful history of terrorism, espionage, invasions, spying, and assassination convictions in multiple countries, or you choose to ignore all of history and blindly support it. Either way, please stop acting surprised when people claim Israels' foreign policy is antagonistic, as if her detractors are mistaken and fabricating... as if Chomsky and Kofi Anaan are liars...
- wolf550e 15y ago
  You don't like Israel, fine. To what in my post do you object? How do I act surprised? BTW, the _government_ of Israel has never been religiously driven, rather it has always been security conscious. The racism, nuclear deterrent, invasions, and assassinations are all a result of security policy (what do you call terrorism?). Condemning countries for espionage/spying (twice!) is kinda strange - all countries engage in espionage. The most egregious, in both this respect and invasions is the US. Do you perchance live on land stolen from Mexico or the American Natives? Enjoying a standard of living dependent on world wide projection of military power? Even if you don't, I think Israel receives a disproportionate amount of criticism for the amount of evil it does.
  - kristopolous 15y ago
    Israel was founded by Lehi, Irgun, and Haganah. The evacuation plan which led to the population growth of Israel was invented by Irgun commander Ze'ev Jabotinsky. The sixth prime minister of Israel, Menachem Begin, was also a commander in Irgun. Irgun and Lehi led to Herut, which is now the modern controlling Likud party in Israel. Lehi also had Yitzhak Shamir who became prime minister in the 1980s. Lehi is famous for the Ankara document which proposed a pact with Nazi Germany to help start a totalitarian state (their words) in Palestine, to fulfill Zionism. They sponsored multiple sabotage and espionage operations against the British and in the Middle East. They were instrumental later in the invasion of Iran in 1942. Lehi assassinated politicians in Britain and was described as a terrorist organization by the British authorities. Irgun is an even easier case to make. Its motto: a hand holding a rifle with the words "only thus" underneath it. It was self-described as a terrorist organization by spokespeople from it at the time (1940s) and openly spoke of terrorism as the only effective way for a Zionist state. So yes, Israel exists because of terrorism and is deeply rooted in it at a fundamental basis. The whole point is that to point out that the current political manifestation known as Israel is a danger for the geopolitical stability of the region is actually a valid observation that historians will see as clear as day in 500 years. I know how politically unwise it is currently, but that doesn't make the reality false. There's lots of bitter pills out there.
    - 15y ago

The_Fox 15y ago

Your CounterPunch source seems to have quite an agenda. It goes on to claim that Iran has no nuclear weapons program at all- a claim that is not well supported by all the things we see Iran doing. Even if the article is correct, Ahmadinejad has said things like "this regime that is occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time" and "I have no doubt that the new movement taking place in our dear Palestine is a wave of morality which is spanning the entire Islamic world and which will soon remove this stain of disgrace from the Islamic world." The simplest interpretation of these statements is that Ahmadinejad strongly supports military action against Israel. (Unless you think Ahmadinejad is talking about a more peaceful way for Israel to "vanish from the page of time?") Also: who cares if Iran has a Jewish population? That doesn't mean Ahmadinejad isn't a threat to Israel.

justsee 15y ago
> Also: who cares if Iran has a Jewish population? It's a simple fact to illustrate that Iran is not bent on destruction of the Jewish people. Cultivating that idea in the public mind is the aim of that mistranslation, because the false idea of a genocidal Iran garners more worldwide support for the Israeli Government. > That doesn't mean Ahmadinejad isn't a threat to Israel. The only people threatened in any serious way by the Iranian regime are the Iranian people themselves. The idea that Iran poses a threat to Israel or the West is merely the public story to garner support for any military action. Iran is surrounded by the largest military super-power in history, and has a hostile and aggressive neighbour who is armed with a significant number of nuclear weapons. Iran's military posture is defensive, and all serious military analysis does not regard Iran as a threat. A politician talking things up for a domestic audience does not qualify as a serious threat, but it certainly helps feed into a narrative for Western audiences. The nuclear ambitions of Iran are also clearly defensive. North Korea remains untouched where Iran's neighbour Iraq is completely overrun. Obtaining nuclear-power status delivers much more political leverage, but that's it. Iran's leaders know any move to aggression would quickly result in military annhilation by Israel / US.
- tkahn6 15y ago
  > Iran's military posture is defensive Iran has insurgents and clerics in Iraq actively attacking Sunni civilians and Saudi-backed militias and NATO soldiers. Iran sends weapons and money to Hamas in Gaza. Iran funds and sends weapons to Hezbollah, a paramilitary and political organization that has metastasized in Lebanon, accused of assassinating the Lebanese president. Iran sends weapons and money to Bashar Al-Assad in Syria. Can you explain what is to be gained by pushing apologist rhetoric for the Iranian regime? I'm genuinely curious to know what you personally gain or what is gained 'in the abstract' by sugar-coating Iran's international ambitions. There seems to be a certain faction within the left that is very bent on this mission and I'm hoping you can explain the rationale behind it.

nivertech 15y ago

The Jewish and Armenian members of Parlament are just puppets. Iranian regime only tolerate tiny minorities, because they do not represent any threat, while large minorities like Azeris and Kurds are forcefully iranized and denied any signs of cultural and ethnic autonomy.