6 ms·

The problem with all these 'right to repair' advocates is that they assume that it is zero costs and that the manufacturers will eat that cost. No it will have

The problem with all these 'right to repair' advocates is that they assume that it is zero costs and that the manufacturers will eat that cost. No it will have a cost. And that is likely to disproportionally impact the cheapest phones and the poorest households.

smoldesu 3y ago
No, we all fully expect it to be expensive. Manufacturers didn't move away from repairable devices for nothing; it's cheaper to manufacture and design something that doesn't ever get taken apart. It also helps ensure that your customers switch to a new product once their old one breaks. Considering that I've bought $15 Tracphones with a replaceable battery and SD card slot, I think those poorer households will be okay. It's better than the government buying them garbage that was designed to be obsolete from the start.
AlexandrB 3y ago
There's also a cost to making everything disposable and hard to repair. $300 to Apple to fix a button on an Apple Watch is one such cost, but there's also the waste created. Unfortunately those costs are harder to quantify and will take a long time to show up on a balance sheet somewhere.
goku12 3y ago
A lot of us will be happy if a repairable phone costs me twice as much, but lasts 3 times as long because we won't have to throw the entire thing away and buy a new one when a tiny IC, a battery or the display fails. It will also reduce the damage to the environment which is already at the brink. These things are not harmless to recycle, even if they can be. Add to this, the fact that many OEMs go for exclusive deals with the parts manufacturers where the parts are not allowed to enter mass market. This is to make repairs costly by creating artificial scarcity. This suggests that the true cost of repairable devices is not as exorbitant or harmful to the poor as these manufacturers and OEMs project it to be. It's more in the realm of disinformation.
- gruez 3y ago
  >A lot of us will be happy if a repairable phone costs me twice as much, but lasts 3 times as long because we won't have to throw the entire thing away and buy a new one when a tiny IC, a battery or the display fails. Isn't the fairphone basically this?
  - goku12 3y ago
    That was a generic statement - I wasn't implying that such devices don't exist. And yes, fairfone is a good example and we need to support brands like those. I'm currently in the process of gradually replacing old devices with repairable ones.
heffer 3y ago
I'd argue this cost has always been there and was never zero to begin with. Mass producing non-repairable, cheap throwaway items is an excellent way for industries to externalize a lot of the lifecycle cost of an item onto society. So you get to choose at which point you'd like to pay for it. Directly and very visibly in an item's price (maybe even making you reconsider if a purchase is actually necessary). Or later, in taxes or a decrease in quality of life due to the increasing overexploitation of our resources.
- gruez 3y ago
  > Mass producing non-repairable, cheap throwaway items is an excellent way for industries to externalize a lot of the lifecycle cost of an item onto society. If you're against the externalization of costs, shouldn't you be advocating for measures that fully internalize such costs (eg. by charging a disposal fee at the point of sale), rather than merely trying to reduce it by making phones more repairable? That way consumers and manufacturers can decide for themselves whether the repairability is worth the extra cost or not.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - abdullahkhalids 3y ago
    To live in a world with repairable devices or in one without is a social consensus problem. We either are stuck in one game-theoretic equilibrium or the other. Game-theoretic equilibria cannot be defeated by "letting individual actors decide". They are solved by social consensus, and in this particular case, by the passage of the right-to-repair law that forces the entire system from one equilibrium state to the other.
    - gruez 3y ago
      What's the "game-theoretic equilibrium" that's preventing repairable phones if consumers demand it? We have repairable versions of laptops and phones but they haven't really caught on outside of niche circles. Maybe people don't actually care about repairability?
arcticbull 3y ago
> No it will have a cost. And that is likely to disproportionally impact the cheapest phones and the poorest households. I'd actually argue the opposite. Historically the poor have been the ones who repair their property rather than throwing it out and replacing it. It's far cheaper to repair than it is to replace. Assuming the poor repair and the rich replace, as is tradition, then I would argue a modest price increase would represent the rich subsidizing the poor.
gpm 3y ago
There are two "types" of right to repair. One is "you can't use the law to prevent me from fixing things", the other is "you have to make them easy to fix". Based on the article, particularly the part that describes the bill [1], this is the former. Amending the law so that it doesn't prevent repairing things adds absolutely no cost to manufacturing... [1] "The bill would amend the Canadian copyright act, allowing individuals or independent repair shops to break digital locks in order to make software fixes."
- MostlyStable 3y ago
  Yeah, I think this is an important distinction. As much as I personally wish almost everything was designed to be repairable and that parts/instructions were easily available from the manufacturer, I'm actually pretty uncertain that those should be _requirements_. I really just want it to be legal to repair and modify anything. The manufacturer should be allowed to design any way they want (and I will continue to attempt to avoid manufacturers who make repair hard), but the most important thing is that if I _do_ repair it, that is recognized as fully within my rights and that the manufacturer can't use the law to punish me, up to and including modifying software, as long as it's for personal use. Anything beyond that probably needs to be a signal from consumers that they _want_ (and perhaps be willing to pay a price premium for) repairable goods with available parts and documentation.

smoldesu 3y ago

No, we all fully expect it to be expensive. Manufacturers didn't move away from repairable devices for nothing; it's cheaper to manufacture and design something that doesn't ever get taken apart. It also helps ensure that your customers switch to a new product once their old one breaks. Considering that I've bought $15 Tracphones with a replaceable battery and SD card slot, I think those poorer households will be okay. It's better than the government buying them garbage that was designed to be obsolete from the start.

AlexandrB 3y ago

There's also a cost to making everything disposable and hard to repair. $300 to Apple to fix a button on an Apple Watch is one such cost, but there's also the waste created. Unfortunately those costs are harder to quantify and will take a long time to show up on a balance sheet somewhere.

goku12 3y ago

A lot of us will be happy if a repairable phone costs me twice as much, but lasts 3 times as long because we won't have to throw the entire thing away and buy a new one when a tiny IC, a battery or the display fails. It will also reduce the damage to the environment which is already at the brink. These things are not harmless to recycle, even if they can be. Add to this, the fact that many OEMs go for exclusive deals with the parts manufacturers where the parts are not allowed to enter mass market. This is to make repairs costly by creating artificial scarcity. This suggests that the true cost of repairable devices is not as exorbitant or harmful to the poor as these manufacturers and OEMs project it to be. It's more in the realm of disinformation.

gruez 3y ago
>A lot of us will be happy if a repairable phone costs me twice as much, but lasts 3 times as long because we won't have to throw the entire thing away and buy a new one when a tiny IC, a battery or the display fails. Isn't the fairphone basically this?
- goku12 3y ago
  That was a generic statement - I wasn't implying that such devices don't exist. And yes, fairfone is a good example and we need to support brands like those. I'm currently in the process of gradually replacing old devices with repairable ones.

heffer 3y ago

I'd argue this cost has always been there and was never zero to begin with. Mass producing non-repairable, cheap throwaway items is an excellent way for industries to externalize a lot of the lifecycle cost of an item onto society. So you get to choose at which point you'd like to pay for it. Directly and very visibly in an item's price (maybe even making you reconsider if a purchase is actually necessary). Or later, in taxes or a decrease in quality of life due to the increasing overexploitation of our resources.

gruez 3y ago
> Mass producing non-repairable, cheap throwaway items is an excellent way for industries to externalize a lot of the lifecycle cost of an item onto society. If you're against the externalization of costs, shouldn't you be advocating for measures that fully internalize such costs (eg. by charging a disposal fee at the point of sale), rather than merely trying to reduce it by making phones more repairable? That way consumers and manufacturers can decide for themselves whether the repairability is worth the extra cost or not.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- abdullahkhalids 3y ago
  To live in a world with repairable devices or in one without is a social consensus problem. We either are stuck in one game-theoretic equilibrium or the other. Game-theoretic equilibria cannot be defeated by "letting individual actors decide". They are solved by social consensus, and in this particular case, by the passage of the right-to-repair law that forces the entire system from one equilibrium state to the other.
  - gruez 3y ago
    What's the "game-theoretic equilibrium" that's preventing repairable phones if consumers demand it? We have repairable versions of laptops and phones but they haven't really caught on outside of niche circles. Maybe people don't actually care about repairability?

arcticbull 3y ago

> No it will have a cost. And that is likely to disproportionally impact the cheapest phones and the poorest households. I'd actually argue the opposite. Historically the poor have been the ones who repair their property rather than throwing it out and replacing it. It's far cheaper to repair than it is to replace. Assuming the poor repair and the rich replace, as is tradition, then I would argue a modest price increase would represent the rich subsidizing the poor.

gpm 3y ago

There are two "types" of right to repair. One is "you can't use the law to prevent me from fixing things", the other is "you have to make them easy to fix". Based on the article, particularly the part that describes the bill [1], this is the former. Amending the law so that it doesn't prevent repairing things adds absolutely no cost to manufacturing... [1] "The bill would amend the Canadian copyright act, allowing individuals or independent repair shops to break digital locks in order to make software fixes."

MostlyStable 3y ago
Yeah, I think this is an important distinction. As much as I personally wish almost everything was designed to be repairable and that parts/instructions were easily available from the manufacturer, I'm actually pretty uncertain that those should be _requirements_. I really just want it to be legal to repair and modify anything. The manufacturer should be allowed to design any way they want (and I will continue to attempt to avoid manufacturers who make repair hard), but the most important thing is that if I _do_ repair it, that is recognized as fully within my rights and that the manufacturer can't use the law to punish me, up to and including modifying software, as long as it's for personal use. Anything beyond that probably needs to be a signal from consumers that they _want_ (and perhaps be willing to pay a price premium for) repairable goods with available parts and documentation.