4 ms·

The contrast between the media's depiction of today's events with this outcome demonstrates how much Sam and his aligned interests can influence a narrative. T

by ansk 3y ago

The contrast between the media's depiction of today's events with this outcome demonstrates how much Sam and his aligned interests can influence a narrative. The vast majority of reporting indicated that Sam held all the leverage, the board members were about to be fired, and a new board would be appointed which would be much better aligned with Sam. These accounts took special care to portray the current board as inept, wavering, and eager to backtrack. However, the reality appears to be that the board was steadfast in their decision and focused on moving forward in search of a new CEO. The truth is, we still don't know the real reason why Sam was ousted. His removal may be justified and it may not. But in the absence of information, media speculation was overwhelmingly biased in Sam's interests. If the news that the board did not immediately backtrack and capitulate to Sam's demands seems to be coming out of left field, you've likely fallen victim to this narrative. Chances are the board is not as incompetent as you were led to believe, and any judgement of their competence should be reserved until further details are provided on the reasons for Sam's removal.

systemvoltage 3y ago
There is one thing that sticks out: Why didn't the board explain itself clearly? There are times when saying anything publicly would be considered defamation and openining themselves to lawsuits, but it seems that they owe it to their own staff in plain words. They didn't explain the situation properly as per leaked internal announcements.
- choppaface 3y ago
  Maybe for a company of 12-50 there would be more candid discussion internally, but over 100 and especially at OpenAI size (and with Microsoft involved) liability control is at the max. Moreover, if the Board thought the decision would help improve retention, then they would comment, but that's clearly not the case. OpenAI is not a typical LLC or S/C-corp though, so the Board also has to overcome that conceptual hurdle.
- ah765 3y ago
  I think it's possible that Sam had some secret plans involving deals with external companies, that the board learned about. They can't reveal that information without potentially damaging other businesses and becoming liable.
  - xiphias2 3y ago
    While Sam tried to make the impression that he doesn't know why he was fired, he didn't even try to deny the allegations that he was in talks with the Saudis to create a for profit AI hardware company. I think you are right that Ilya didn't want to give out secret information to not open up himself to lawsuits.
- politelemon 3y ago
  I question if any board in history has explained itself with clarity and honesty. By my cynical lens they would never stoop to engage in virtues other than signalling.
nicce 3y ago
How much controlling this influence of a narrative impacts for decision to resign for workers as a protest in OpenAI? I hope that not too much…
lajawfe 3y ago
Yes, the media and the general conversation seems very one sided; and I do not see any basis to take a side. Sam being an overachiever, might actually be acting with maleficence and deceit. Why is no-one even considering that? Everyone is just reiterating that board is inept and trying to undermine them. This does not sit right with me.
hooande 3y ago
If this were true they never would have had talks to bring him back. That's the opposite of steadfast commitment to principles. If Sam wronged them or the company in a significant way they never should have let him back in the building. The board's decisions may or may not turn out to be correct in hindsight. But it's very difficult to say that this was a good example of leadership or decision making.
- lajawfe 3y ago
  That is just current narrative, we don't know the details right? There was immense pressure from investors/Microsoft and board had to have that meeting. But the board probably already made their mind and did not balk under pressure.
- lostmsu 3y ago
  That depends on what "talks" consisted of. If it was Altman throwing arguments at them, and them just replying "no thank you", I don't see a problem.
- jay_kyburz 3y ago
  If I had to guess, they had the talks to bring him back as a favor to somebody, or as a sign of good faith, but neither party had changed their position so there was no compromise to be had.
- dundarious 3y ago
  https://twitter.com/ashleevance/status/1726469283734274338 https://twitter.com/ashleevance/status/1726469283734274338 > So, here's what happened at OpenAI tonight. Mira planned to hire Sam and Greg back. She turned Team Sam over past couple of days. Idea was to force board to fire everyone, which they figured the board would not do. Board went into total silence. Found their own CEO Emmett Shear Written by the person who broke the story at Bloomberg. So it appears a single person on the board wanted the talks to bring him back, and nobody else. I think that's 1 against 3, but the point is that the board wasn't totally united (which is not surprising).
  - deleted 3y ago
adastra22 3y ago
The board demonstrated their incompetency in how they fired Sam without communicating this decision to their biggest stakeholder, Microsoft, or with any clear transition plan in place.
- swalling 3y ago
  The board governs a mission-driven nonprofit, not a profit-focused enterprise where Microsoft has board-level influence as investor. This tension (operating as if it is a startup when it is not) is why Altman was fired.
  - adastra22 3y ago
    Stakeholder is not a by-word for shareholder. Microsoft has a very large stake in the outcome of OpenAI’s decisions, even if they aren’t a “shareholder” (if that were a thing) of the OpenAI non-profit.
b0tch7 3y ago
The fact that this outcome occurred proves the board's resolve & determination (stubbornness?) but not much else. some important questions: - if Ilya had 4:2, why not just sit Sam down and work all this out in private? - why has the board been completely unable to explain themselves to OAI employees? to the public? - why not take a more neutral "parting ways" tone? - latest reporting suggests that the board is doing this without any outside council (legal or professional network). it seems absolutely bonkers to risk funding sources eg MSFT on a decision like this.
- altpaddle 3y ago
  Human character doesn't change that much, let's say that in his heart Sam is more of of a move fast and commercialize type of leader and Ilya doesn't want that. Do you think them sitting down and talking about it is really going to change things that much? People are who they are. If anything they've probably had these exact conversations many times already. Not every relationship is fixable, sometimes people are just incompatible. As for the board's silence to the public, this should be obvious. Talking about their thinking/plans/reasons for firing Sam exposes them to all kinds of risk both legally and otherwise. The safe move is to stay quiet in public and continue talks with the relevant stakeholders (Microsoft, Sam + loyalists) in private
didibus 3y ago
I'm still surprised how little attention there has been on the fact that Sam Altman's sister is accusing him of sexually assaulting her when she was younger. His own sister, even if it's not true, it reflects poorly to have this kind of relationship with your sister that she'd say this, and if it's true, it's very problematic. And for some reason, very very little mention of this. I just find it suspicious from a media behavior point of view.
- emodendroket 3y ago
  Where has this been reported?
  - didibus 3y ago
    She tweeted it herself: https://twitter.com/phuckfilosophy/status/1459696376133001218 https://twitter.com/phuckfilosophy/status/145969637613300121... https://twitter.com/phuckfilosophy/status/1635704398939832321 https://twitter.com/phuckfilosophy/status/163570439893983232...
- nearbuy 3y ago
  No, this is the proper way to handle accusations from someone who may not be credible. You investigate privately, and only report after, if the accusations seem credible. You don't blast across the media that so-and-so is accused of sexual assault, because then the damage is done, regardless of the truth. Signal boost it enough, and every lay-person's main association with the person will become, "oh, that guy accused of sexually assaulting his sister". The accusations are about events 25 years ago, when they were children. No one will ever be able to disprove this, so there's no way to undo the reputational damage.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- gizmondo 3y ago
  > even if it's not true, it reflects poorly to have this kind of relationship with your sister that she'd say this People making false accusations against you reflects poorly on _you_ now? What a world to live in.

by ansk 3y ago

systemvoltage 3y ago

There is one thing that sticks out: Why didn't the board explain itself clearly? There are times when saying anything publicly would be considered defamation and openining themselves to lawsuits, but it seems that they owe it to their own staff in plain words. They didn't explain the situation properly as per leaked internal announcements.

choppaface 3y ago
Maybe for a company of 12-50 there would be more candid discussion internally, but over 100 and especially at OpenAI size (and with Microsoft involved) liability control is at the max. Moreover, if the Board thought the decision would help improve retention, then they would comment, but that's clearly not the case. OpenAI is not a typical LLC or S/C-corp though, so the Board also has to overcome that conceptual hurdle.
ah765 3y ago
I think it's possible that Sam had some secret plans involving deals with external companies, that the board learned about. They can't reveal that information without potentially damaging other businesses and becoming liable.
- xiphias2 3y ago
  While Sam tried to make the impression that he doesn't know why he was fired, he didn't even try to deny the allegations that he was in talks with the Saudis to create a for profit AI hardware company. I think you are right that Ilya didn't want to give out secret information to not open up himself to lawsuits.
politelemon 3y ago
I question if any board in history has explained itself with clarity and honesty. By my cynical lens they would never stoop to engage in virtues other than signalling.

nicce 3y ago

How much controlling this influence of a narrative impacts for decision to resign for workers as a protest in OpenAI? I hope that not too much…

lajawfe 3y ago

Yes, the media and the general conversation seems very one sided; and I do not see any basis to take a side. Sam being an overachiever, might actually be acting with maleficence and deceit. Why is no-one even considering that? Everyone is just reiterating that board is inept and trying to undermine them. This does not sit right with me.

hooande 3y ago

If this were true they never would have had talks to bring him back. That's the opposite of steadfast commitment to principles. If Sam wronged them or the company in a significant way they never should have let him back in the building. The board's decisions may or may not turn out to be correct in hindsight. But it's very difficult to say that this was a good example of leadership or decision making.

lajawfe 3y ago
That is just current narrative, we don't know the details right? There was immense pressure from investors/Microsoft and board had to have that meeting. But the board probably already made their mind and did not balk under pressure.
lostmsu 3y ago
That depends on what "talks" consisted of. If it was Altman throwing arguments at them, and them just replying "no thank you", I don't see a problem.
jay_kyburz 3y ago
If I had to guess, they had the talks to bring him back as a favor to somebody, or as a sign of good faith, but neither party had changed their position so there was no compromise to be had.
dundarious 3y ago
https://twitter.com/ashleevance/status/1726469283734274338 https://twitter.com/ashleevance/status/1726469283734274338 > So, here's what happened at OpenAI tonight. Mira planned to hire Sam and Greg back. She turned Team Sam over past couple of days. Idea was to force board to fire everyone, which they figured the board would not do. Board went into total silence. Found their own CEO Emmett Shear Written by the person who broke the story at Bloomberg. So it appears a single person on the board wanted the talks to bring him back, and nobody else. I think that's 1 against 3, but the point is that the board wasn't totally united (which is not surprising).
- deleted 3y ago

adastra22 3y ago

The board demonstrated their incompetency in how they fired Sam without communicating this decision to their biggest stakeholder, Microsoft, or with any clear transition plan in place.

swalling 3y ago
The board governs a mission-driven nonprofit, not a profit-focused enterprise where Microsoft has board-level influence as investor. This tension (operating as if it is a startup when it is not) is why Altman was fired.
- adastra22 3y ago
  Stakeholder is not a by-word for shareholder. Microsoft has a very large stake in the outcome of OpenAI’s decisions, even if they aren’t a “shareholder” (if that were a thing) of the OpenAI non-profit.

b0tch7 3y ago

The fact that this outcome occurred proves the board's resolve & determination (stubbornness?) but not much else. some important questions: - if Ilya had 4:2, why not just sit Sam down and work all this out in private? - why has the board been completely unable to explain themselves to OAI employees? to the public? - why not take a more neutral "parting ways" tone? - latest reporting suggests that the board is doing this without any outside council (legal or professional network). it seems absolutely bonkers to risk funding sources eg MSFT on a decision like this.

altpaddle 3y ago
Human character doesn't change that much, let's say that in his heart Sam is more of of a move fast and commercialize type of leader and Ilya doesn't want that. Do you think them sitting down and talking about it is really going to change things that much? People are who they are. If anything they've probably had these exact conversations many times already. Not every relationship is fixable, sometimes people are just incompatible. As for the board's silence to the public, this should be obvious. Talking about their thinking/plans/reasons for firing Sam exposes them to all kinds of risk both legally and otherwise. The safe move is to stay quiet in public and continue talks with the relevant stakeholders (Microsoft, Sam + loyalists) in private

didibus 3y ago

I'm still surprised how little attention there has been on the fact that Sam Altman's sister is accusing him of sexually assaulting her when she was younger. His own sister, even if it's not true, it reflects poorly to have this kind of relationship with your sister that she'd say this, and if it's true, it's very problematic. And for some reason, very very little mention of this. I just find it suspicious from a media behavior point of view.

emodendroket 3y ago
Where has this been reported?
- didibus 3y ago
  She tweeted it herself: https://twitter.com/phuckfilosophy/status/1459696376133001218 https://twitter.com/phuckfilosophy/status/145969637613300121... https://twitter.com/phuckfilosophy/status/1635704398939832321 https://twitter.com/phuckfilosophy/status/163570439893983232...
nearbuy 3y ago
No, this is the proper way to handle accusations from someone who may not be credible. You investigate privately, and only report after, if the accusations seem credible. You don't blast across the media that so-and-so is accused of sexual assault, because then the damage is done, regardless of the truth. Signal boost it enough, and every lay-person's main association with the person will become, "oh, that guy accused of sexually assaulting his sister". The accusations are about events 25 years ago, when they were children. No one will ever be able to disprove this, so there's no way to undo the reputational damage.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
gizmondo 3y ago
> even if it's not true, it reflects poorly to have this kind of relationship with your sister that she'd say this People making false accusations against you reflects poorly on _you_ now? What a world to live in.