5 ms·

Sam Altman Will Not Return to OpenAI as CEO

64 points by omarfarooq 3y ago

ceruleanseas 3y ago
Emmett Shear is the new interim CEO
- acl777 3y ago
  ?! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Shear https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Shear
reducesuffering 3y ago
Emmett Shear: "Motte: e/acc is just techno-optimism, everyone who is against e/acc must be against building a better future and hate technology Bailey: e/acc is about building a techno-god, we oppose any attempt to safeguard humanity by regulating AI in any form around and around and around" https://twitter.com/eshear/status/1683208767054438400 https://twitter.com/eshear/status/1683208767054438400
- esafak 3y ago
  Can we use English rather than Twitterisms, please? That's "effective accelerationism"; a term I, along with most people, have not heard of. https://beff.substack.com/p/notes-on-eacc-principles-and-tenets https://beff.substack.com/p/notes-on-eacc-principles-and-ten...
  - good_lord_dang 3y ago
    [dead]
  - lolinder 3y ago
    Expanding the term is still not a huge help without an accompanying search, which worked fine with the short version too. https://www.businessinsider.com/silicon-valley-tech-leaders-accelerationism-eacc-twitter-profiles-2023-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/silicon-valley-tech-leaders-...
- jay_kyburz 3y ago
  I can't tell. Is Emmett for or against e/acc
  - qt31415926 3y ago
    He's pointing out a motte/bailey meaning he's against the motte. If to him e/acc is the motte, then he's likely against
- maizeq 3y ago
  I love that he called this out. In my experience, e/acc people love using this inane reasoning
gkoberger 3y ago
“My understanding is that Sam is in shock” https://x.com/emilychangtv/status/1726468006786859101?s=46 https://x.com/emilychangtv/status/1726468006786859101?s=46
- krystianantoni 3y ago
  XD
open592 3y ago
I’m sure it’s a stressful moment in time for him, but he certainly won’t look back and say it was boring.
hnuser 3y ago
Bloody monday
beeyaw 3y ago
Great news, guess throwing shade and getting a mob to publicly support you on Twitter doesn't do anything
- yeck 3y ago
  Thank god
recovery_mode 3y ago
'OpenAI’s "primary fiduciary duty is to humanity," not to investors or even employees.' I'm so proud of the board for sticking to their principles over profit. This is a huge victory for all of us, and a chance for everyone to come together and approach AGI safely and for the benefit of all.
- azinman2 3y ago
  You're assuming it'll continue on that path, and well. Personally I think this is where they'll end up stagnating, although I'm happy to be wrong. It's going to make recruiting top talent far harder, and ultimately this hiccup will cause them to lose their edge. Losing that edge lessens the desire to go there, which will drive down competitiveness, which will further pull them back from the fray. I believe it'll make the US less competitive, which makes me sad.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - yeck 3y ago
    Hard to say what the impact on access to talent will be. I know people working in AI that wouldn't consider working at OpenAI out of perceived recklessness. At least one that I've been speaking with during this weekend said that this made them more open to the idea.
- Racing0461 3y ago
  > approach AGI safely The only risk AGI poses to the average american is unemployment. If immigration/outsourcing is fine, i don't see anthing being done about this.
  - reducesuffering 3y ago
    Sam Altman, Ilya Sutskever, Yoshua Bengio, Geoff Hinton, Demis Hassabis (DeepMind CEO), Dario Amodei (Anthropic CEO), and Bill Gates disagree with you. https://twitter.com/robbensinger/status/1726039794197872939 https://twitter.com/robbensinger/status/1726039794197872939
coder-3 3y ago
This is good. If Sama managed to overthrow the board I'd be worried about the future of AI safety
- partiallypro 3y ago
  Why? Now they'll just start their own company that is 100% for profit and OpenAI may eventually fade into nothingness as money chases the new venture, possibly even Microsoft and employees flee. There's a rumor that Microsoft is already interested in funding Sam's new venture.
  - peanuty1 3y ago
    It's good because Sam was pushing for regulatory capture to harm startups and open-source efforts.
  - coder-3 3y ago
    They won't be able to catch up to and surpass OpenAI. At least not for a few years. I'm in the camp that we ought to solve alignment before we get to AGI and also of the camp that this is unlikely. Therefore, the pace of AI progress slowing and a point won by the safety side is a good thing based on my assumptions.
  - yeck 3y ago
    I get the sense that there was not a lot of time to do this before Sam was too difficult to remove and appropriated the brand and assets. From the reading on this I did this evening (which was much more than I probably should have) I had seen it suggested that this might have been a limited window in time where the board was small enough to pull this off. It was 9 members not long ago before being reduced down to 6 (where 4 of them collaborated). Allegedly Sam was looking to grow the board back up.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
paulddraper 3y ago
> threatening to set off a broader wave of departures to OpenAI’s rivals, including Google, and to a new venture Altman has been plotting in the wake of his firing. This is really the question: how many employees will stay, go to existing competitors, or go to AltmanAI. Without brain drain from OpenAI, Altman's new venture will not be nearly as interesting. (Though given that three senior scientists resigned already...it seems probable.) --- Does OpenAPI not have any non-compete agreements? Is that why this is possible?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- omarfarooq 3y ago
  Non-competes are not enforceable in California.
paulddraper 3y ago
> So, here's what happened at OpenAI tonight. Mira [CTO and interim CEO] planned to hire Sam and Greg back. She turned Team Sam over past couple of days. Idea was to force board to fire everyone, which they figured the board would not do. Board went into total silence. Found their own CEO Emmett Shear https://twitter.com/emilychangtv/status/1726468006786859101 https://twitter.com/emilychangtv/status/1726468006786859101
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
_lvbh 3y ago
I’m glad people in this thread are supporting the OpenAI board in this decision. There seems to be too much celebrity worship around Altman from all the tech/crypto bros. Also, any new competition started by Altman would be good for the ecosystem in general.
- paulddraper 3y ago
  > There seems to be too much celebrity worship around Altman from all the tech/crypto bros I haven't seen anyone worship Altman. I've seen many say the board made an incredibly dumb decision. Like Apple-firing-Jobs level dumb decision. --- Whether you think it's net good for OpenAI to be brought down a rung or two...you can still think it was bad for OpenAPI.
  - peanuty1 3y ago
    OpenAI is a non-profit focused on developing safe AGI and Steve Jobs was pivotal in the success of Apple - not sure if Jobs' firing is a good comparison for Sam's firing.
    - paulddraper 3y ago
      > not sure if Jobs' firing is a good comparison Because they are different products? Or because Altman wasn't pivotal in the success of OpenAI?
  - yeck 3y ago
    I've seen some likening Sam to Caesar, being betrayed and such. Certainly there are communities that match what the parent comment describes. HN has generally been more balanced than I would have though, though. The fan boys I've personally encountered have been more in the lands of YT and Reddit.
    - paulddraper 3y ago
      Firing and homicide are different, but certainly he was betrayed, yes?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
noneoftheaboveu 3y ago
What are the exact reasons why he was fired? Come on guys, this is ridiculous ….
- mise_en_place 3y ago
  It’s all rumors and innuendos at this point.
remarkEon 3y ago
Does this mean the Safetyists won?
- coder-3 3y ago
  The battle, yes. The war, no.
maizeq 3y ago
The reporting on this in the last two days has been bizarre and of such shoddy quality, particularly from The Verge. So many articles with no real sources saying the board was desperate for him to come back, or reneged on their decision, or that there would be an exodus of employees! I’m glad the board wasn’t browbeaten by Sam and his cohort of VC friends. I am also incredibly doubtful this will have any meaningful impact in terms of engineers/researchers who will choose to leave. Most of the core group of researchers and engineers joined OpenAI the non-profit, not OpenAI the LLC, that is to say I assume many have strong feelings about safety around AI, which judging by the employee testimonies in the recent Atlantic article Sam acted negligently towards.
- paulddraper 3y ago
  > the board was desperate for him to come back Who reported that? > reneged on their decision Who reported that? > there would be an exodus of employees The chairman of the board and three senior scientists resigned before the weekend was over. You'd have to be naive to think it's not a strong possibility.
  - yeck 3y ago
    Not OP, but the choice of phrasing in a number of reports implied that the board was uncertain of their decision. Normal sensationalization if the same limited information that was publicly available at the time.
  - maizeq 3y ago
    https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/18/23967199/breaking-openai-board-in-discussions-with-sam-altman-to-return-as-ceo https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/18/23967199/breaking-openai... https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/18/23967199/breaking-openai-board-in-discussions-with-sam-altman-to-return-as-ceo https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/18/23967199/breaking-openai... “The OpenAI board is in discussions with Sam Altman to return to the company as its CEO, according to multiple people familiar with the matter. One of them said Altman, who was suddenly fired by the board on Friday with no notice, is “ambivalent” about coming back and would want significant governance changes. Update November 18th, 5:35PM PT: A source close to Altman says the board had agreed in principle to resign and to allow Altman and Brockman to return, but has since waffled” Do you want me to hold your hand to google anything else or is that enough? Former-chairman*, he was removed from the board immediately after Sam’s ouster. OpenAI has 700 employees, 4 resignations do not make an exodus.
asimpleusecase 3y ago
Unless there is one ultra genius who holds all the knowledge to create AGI staying at OpenAI - there will be no “safe AI” built by OpenAI that saves the world. They are likely to lose all the key talent left, over the next month as they cluster around Sam and his Newco or go out and start their own.
benkarst 3y ago
OpenAI never found a true identity under Sam. Sam treated pursued hyper growth (treating it like a YC startup) and many in the company, including Ilya, wanted it to be a research company emphasizing AI safety. Whether you're Team Sutzkaver or team Altman, you can't deny it's been interesting to see extremely talented people fundamentally disagree what to do with godlike technology.
mise_en_place 3y ago
I’ve heard Emmet speak before at Startup School nearly a decade ago. He is very technically minded and a good leader. They could do a lot worse, at the very least I think he will keep an open mind.
krystianantoni 3y ago
Counter-opinion to mainstream here: - backstabbing CEO and founder like that has very bad optics and karma - given ceo was taking part in all hiring many employees will be more attached to him, oh btw he also knows pay and structure of all - board knows they made themselves unhireable at any positions of managerial control/oversight. Rather than realize loss now they better kick the can forward - headcount fallout will only be quantified 3-6 months after Sam sets new company, current assessment is premature - for some some months company will follow momentum set by previous CEO

64 points by omarfarooq 3y ago

ceruleanseas 3y ago

Emmett Shear is the new interim CEO

acl777 3y ago
?! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Shear https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Shear

reducesuffering 3y ago

Emmett Shear: "Motte: e/acc is just techno-optimism, everyone who is against e/acc must be against building a better future and hate technology Bailey: e/acc is about building a techno-god, we oppose any attempt to safeguard humanity by regulating AI in any form around and around and around" https://twitter.com/eshear/status/1683208767054438400 https://twitter.com/eshear/status/1683208767054438400

esafak 3y ago
Can we use English rather than Twitterisms, please? That's "effective accelerationism"; a term I, along with most people, have not heard of. https://beff.substack.com/p/notes-on-eacc-principles-and-tenets https://beff.substack.com/p/notes-on-eacc-principles-and-ten...
- good_lord_dang 3y ago
  [dead]
- lolinder 3y ago
  Expanding the term is still not a huge help without an accompanying search, which worked fine with the short version too. https://www.businessinsider.com/silicon-valley-tech-leaders-accelerationism-eacc-twitter-profiles-2023-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/silicon-valley-tech-leaders-...
jay_kyburz 3y ago
I can't tell. Is Emmett for or against e/acc
- qt31415926 3y ago
  He's pointing out a motte/bailey meaning he's against the motte. If to him e/acc is the motte, then he's likely against
maizeq 3y ago
I love that he called this out. In my experience, e/acc people love using this inane reasoning

gkoberger 3y ago

“My understanding is that Sam is in shock” https://x.com/emilychangtv/status/1726468006786859101?s=46 https://x.com/emilychangtv/status/1726468006786859101?s=46

krystianantoni 3y ago
XD

open592 3y ago

I’m sure it’s a stressful moment in time for him, but he certainly won’t look back and say it was boring.

hnuser 3y ago

Bloody monday

beeyaw 3y ago

Great news, guess throwing shade and getting a mob to publicly support you on Twitter doesn't do anything

yeck 3y ago
Thank god

recovery_mode 3y ago

'OpenAI’s "primary fiduciary duty is to humanity," not to investors or even employees.' I'm so proud of the board for sticking to their principles over profit. This is a huge victory for all of us, and a chance for everyone to come together and approach AGI safely and for the benefit of all.

azinman2 3y ago
You're assuming it'll continue on that path, and well. Personally I think this is where they'll end up stagnating, although I'm happy to be wrong. It's going to make recruiting top talent far harder, and ultimately this hiccup will cause them to lose their edge. Losing that edge lessens the desire to go there, which will drive down competitiveness, which will further pull them back from the fray. I believe it'll make the US less competitive, which makes me sad.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- yeck 3y ago
  Hard to say what the impact on access to talent will be. I know people working in AI that wouldn't consider working at OpenAI out of perceived recklessness. At least one that I've been speaking with during this weekend said that this made them more open to the idea.
Racing0461 3y ago
> approach AGI safely The only risk AGI poses to the average american is unemployment. If immigration/outsourcing is fine, i don't see anthing being done about this.
- reducesuffering 3y ago
  Sam Altman, Ilya Sutskever, Yoshua Bengio, Geoff Hinton, Demis Hassabis (DeepMind CEO), Dario Amodei (Anthropic CEO), and Bill Gates disagree with you. https://twitter.com/robbensinger/status/1726039794197872939 https://twitter.com/robbensinger/status/1726039794197872939

coder-3 3y ago

This is good. If Sama managed to overthrow the board I'd be worried about the future of AI safety

partiallypro 3y ago
Why? Now they'll just start their own company that is 100% for profit and OpenAI may eventually fade into nothingness as money chases the new venture, possibly even Microsoft and employees flee. There's a rumor that Microsoft is already interested in funding Sam's new venture.
- peanuty1 3y ago
  It's good because Sam was pushing for regulatory capture to harm startups and open-source efforts.
- coder-3 3y ago
  They won't be able to catch up to and surpass OpenAI. At least not for a few years. I'm in the camp that we ought to solve alignment before we get to AGI and also of the camp that this is unlikely. Therefore, the pace of AI progress slowing and a point won by the safety side is a good thing based on my assumptions.
- yeck 3y ago
  I get the sense that there was not a lot of time to do this before Sam was too difficult to remove and appropriated the brand and assets. From the reading on this I did this evening (which was much more than I probably should have) I had seen it suggested that this might have been a limited window in time where the board was small enough to pull this off. It was 9 members not long ago before being reduced down to 6 (where 4 of them collaborated). Allegedly Sam was looking to grow the board back up.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

paulddraper 3y ago

> threatening to set off a broader wave of departures to OpenAI’s rivals, including Google, and to a new venture Altman has been plotting in the wake of his firing. This is really the question: how many employees will stay, go to existing competitors, or go to AltmanAI. Without brain drain from OpenAI, Altman's new venture will not be nearly as interesting. (Though given that three senior scientists resigned already...it seems probable.) --- Does OpenAPI not have any non-compete agreements? Is that why this is possible?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
omarfarooq 3y ago
Non-competes are not enforceable in California.

paulddraper 3y ago

> So, here's what happened at OpenAI tonight. Mira [CTO and interim CEO] planned to hire Sam and Greg back. She turned Team Sam over past couple of days. Idea was to force board to fire everyone, which they figured the board would not do. Board went into total silence. Found their own CEO Emmett Shear https://twitter.com/emilychangtv/status/1726468006786859101 https://twitter.com/emilychangtv/status/1726468006786859101

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

_lvbh 3y ago

I’m glad people in this thread are supporting the OpenAI board in this decision. There seems to be too much celebrity worship around Altman from all the tech/crypto bros. Also, any new competition started by Altman would be good for the ecosystem in general.

paulddraper 3y ago
> There seems to be too much celebrity worship around Altman from all the tech/crypto bros I haven't seen anyone worship Altman. I've seen many say the board made an incredibly dumb decision. Like Apple-firing-Jobs level dumb decision. --- Whether you think it's net good for OpenAI to be brought down a rung or two...you can still think it was bad for OpenAPI.
- peanuty1 3y ago
  OpenAI is a non-profit focused on developing safe AGI and Steve Jobs was pivotal in the success of Apple - not sure if Jobs' firing is a good comparison for Sam's firing.
  - paulddraper 3y ago
    > not sure if Jobs' firing is a good comparison Because they are different products? Or because Altman wasn't pivotal in the success of OpenAI?
- yeck 3y ago
  I've seen some likening Sam to Caesar, being betrayed and such. Certainly there are communities that match what the parent comment describes. HN has generally been more balanced than I would have though, though. The fan boys I've personally encountered have been more in the lands of YT and Reddit.
  - paulddraper 3y ago
    Firing and homicide are different, but certainly he was betrayed, yes?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

noneoftheaboveu 3y ago

What are the exact reasons why he was fired? Come on guys, this is ridiculous ….

mise_en_place 3y ago
It’s all rumors and innuendos at this point.

remarkEon 3y ago

Does this mean the Safetyists won?

coder-3 3y ago
The battle, yes. The war, no.

maizeq 3y ago

The reporting on this in the last two days has been bizarre and of such shoddy quality, particularly from The Verge. So many articles with no real sources saying the board was desperate for him to come back, or reneged on their decision, or that there would be an exodus of employees! I’m glad the board wasn’t browbeaten by Sam and his cohort of VC friends. I am also incredibly doubtful this will have any meaningful impact in terms of engineers/researchers who will choose to leave. Most of the core group of researchers and engineers joined OpenAI the non-profit, not OpenAI the LLC, that is to say I assume many have strong feelings about safety around AI, which judging by the employee testimonies in the recent Atlantic article Sam acted negligently towards.

paulddraper 3y ago
> the board was desperate for him to come back Who reported that? > reneged on their decision Who reported that? > there would be an exodus of employees The chairman of the board and three senior scientists resigned before the weekend was over. You'd have to be naive to think it's not a strong possibility.
- yeck 3y ago
  Not OP, but the choice of phrasing in a number of reports implied that the board was uncertain of their decision. Normal sensationalization if the same limited information that was publicly available at the time.
- maizeq 3y ago
  https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/18/23967199/breaking-openai-board-in-discussions-with-sam-altman-to-return-as-ceo https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/18/23967199/breaking-openai... https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/18/23967199/breaking-openai-board-in-discussions-with-sam-altman-to-return-as-ceo https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/18/23967199/breaking-openai... “The OpenAI board is in discussions with Sam Altman to return to the company as its CEO, according to multiple people familiar with the matter. One of them said Altman, who was suddenly fired by the board on Friday with no notice, is “ambivalent” about coming back and would want significant governance changes. Update November 18th, 5:35PM PT: A source close to Altman says the board had agreed in principle to resign and to allow Altman and Brockman to return, but has since waffled” Do you want me to hold your hand to google anything else or is that enough? Former-chairman*, he was removed from the board immediately after Sam’s ouster. OpenAI has 700 employees, 4 resignations do not make an exodus.

asimpleusecase 3y ago

Unless there is one ultra genius who holds all the knowledge to create AGI staying at OpenAI - there will be no “safe AI” built by OpenAI that saves the world. They are likely to lose all the key talent left, over the next month as they cluster around Sam and his Newco or go out and start their own.

benkarst 3y ago

OpenAI never found a true identity under Sam. Sam treated pursued hyper growth (treating it like a YC startup) and many in the company, including Ilya, wanted it to be a research company emphasizing AI safety. Whether you're Team Sutzkaver or team Altman, you can't deny it's been interesting to see extremely talented people fundamentally disagree what to do with godlike technology.

mise_en_place 3y ago

I’ve heard Emmet speak before at Startup School nearly a decade ago. He is very technically minded and a good leader. They could do a lot worse, at the very least I think he will keep an open mind.

krystianantoni 3y ago

Counter-opinion to mainstream here: - backstabbing CEO and founder like that has very bad optics and karma - given ceo was taking part in all hiring many employees will be more attached to him, oh btw he also knows pay and structure of all - board knows they made themselves unhireable at any positions of managerial control/oversight. Rather than realize loss now they better kick the can forward - headcount fallout will only be quantified 3-6 months after Sam sets new company, current assessment is premature - for some some months company will follow momentum set by previous CEO