4 ms·

I don't see that as a viable option. I have no interest whatsoever in living in such a repressive culture. If it works great somewhere else, good, but keep it

I don't see that as a viable option. I have no interest whatsoever in living in such a repressive culture. If it works great somewhere else, good, but keep it somewhere else.

rayiner 3y ago
My point is don’t say it can’t be done. It can be done, you just choose not to do it.
- Teever 3y ago
  I think that when someone says "it can't be done" in this context they mean "It can't be done without a tremendous amount of detrimental side effects."
  - rayiner 3y ago
    That phraseology only makes sense if you assume the audience agrees with you about what’s “detrimental.” But here, whether the “side effects” are “detrimental” depends on how much you value individual freedom, which is part of the debate. It’s like saying “we can’t have universal healthcare” because you personally consider the resulting tax burden unacceptable. You’re obfuscating your message by glossing over an underlying value judgment that’s very much subject to debate.
    - Teever 3y ago
      Which countries have effectively banned alcohol?
      - postalrat 3y ago
        https://www.google.com/search?q=Which%20countries%20have%20effectively%20banned%20alcohol https://www.google.com/search?q=Which%20countries%20have%20e...
        Teever 3y ago
        I'm more interested in what the user I'm replying to believes on the matter than Google.
        alphabettsy 3y ago
        Same because people certainly drink in those countries and alcohol is available.
    - watwut 3y ago
      Obviously and that is true literally every time someone uses that sentence. And speaking about obfuscation: > But here, whether the “side effects” are “detrimental” depends on how much you value individual freedom, which is part of the debate. And how much you value human rights. And how much you value people not being tortured for this. The way muslim countries do it rely on systematic excessive cruelty and control in many private aspects of life. Since we are at "we need to spell it out" maybe we should not hide behind soft euphemism like "valuing individual freedom" which suggest something much softer.
      - rayiner 3y ago
        > And how much you value human rights. There is no such thing as “human rights.” If you autopsy someone you won’t find any human rights in there. It’s just a party trick that allows Europeans to insist that their cultural emphasis on individualism is superior to other cultural values. > And how much you value people not being tortured for this. The way muslim countries do it rely on systematic excessive cruelty For the most part, it’s aunties chiding you, which is only figurative rather than literal torture.
        watwut 3y ago
        Then there is not such thing as "other cultural values" either. There is no such thing as morals or ethics. No abstract concept ever exist. And speaking of these, muslim countries are much more picky, demanding much more and mistreating people (especially women) in much higher numbers. > For the most part, it’s aunties chiding you, which is only figurative rather than literal torture. Sure, there is a lot of that too. And then, there is the rest of it, like, actual literal torture.
        rayiner 3y ago
        “Human rights” don’t exist not because it’s abstract, but because it’s self-contradictory. “Cultural values” and “rights” can exist with respect to a particular society, or by reference to a particular legal code. But “human rights” implies rights that are universal to humans, and there is no such thing. “Human rights” is a religious concept that makes sense if you have a God that provides the source of universal values. But presumably we are having a secular discussion here, not a theological one.

I don't see that as a viable option. I have no interest whatsoever in living in such a repressive culture. If it works great somewhere else, good, but keep it somewhere else.

rayiner 3y ago

My point is don’t say it can’t be done. It can be done, you just choose not to do it.

Teever 3y ago
I think that when someone says "it can't be done" in this context they mean "It can't be done without a tremendous amount of detrimental side effects."
- rayiner 3y ago
  That phraseology only makes sense if you assume the audience agrees with you about what’s “detrimental.” But here, whether the “side effects” are “detrimental” depends on how much you value individual freedom, which is part of the debate. It’s like saying “we can’t have universal healthcare” because you personally consider the resulting tax burden unacceptable. You’re obfuscating your message by glossing over an underlying value judgment that’s very much subject to debate.
  - Teever 3y ago
    Which countries have effectively banned alcohol?
    - postalrat 3y ago
      https://www.google.com/search?q=Which%20countries%20have%20effectively%20banned%20alcohol https://www.google.com/search?q=Which%20countries%20have%20e...
      - Teever 3y ago
        I'm more interested in what the user I'm replying to believes on the matter than Google.
        alphabettsy 3y ago
        Same because people certainly drink in those countries and alcohol is available.
  - watwut 3y ago
    Obviously and that is true literally every time someone uses that sentence. And speaking about obfuscation: > But here, whether the “side effects” are “detrimental” depends on how much you value individual freedom, which is part of the debate. And how much you value human rights. And how much you value people not being tortured for this. The way muslim countries do it rely on systematic excessive cruelty and control in many private aspects of life. Since we are at "we need to spell it out" maybe we should not hide behind soft euphemism like "valuing individual freedom" which suggest something much softer.
    - rayiner 3y ago
      > And how much you value human rights. There is no such thing as “human rights.” If you autopsy someone you won’t find any human rights in there. It’s just a party trick that allows Europeans to insist that their cultural emphasis on individualism is superior to other cultural values. > And how much you value people not being tortured for this. The way muslim countries do it rely on systematic excessive cruelty For the most part, it’s aunties chiding you, which is only figurative rather than literal torture.
      - watwut 3y ago
        Then there is not such thing as "other cultural values" either. There is no such thing as morals or ethics. No abstract concept ever exist. And speaking of these, muslim countries are much more picky, demanding much more and mistreating people (especially women) in much higher numbers. > For the most part, it’s aunties chiding you, which is only figurative rather than literal torture. Sure, there is a lot of that too. And then, there is the rest of it, like, actual literal torture.
        rayiner 3y ago
        “Human rights” don’t exist not because it’s abstract, but because it’s self-contradictory. “Cultural values” and “rights” can exist with respect to a particular society, or by reference to a particular legal code. But “human rights” implies rights that are universal to humans, and there is no such thing. “Human rights” is a religious concept that makes sense if you have a God that provides the source of universal values. But presumably we are having a secular discussion here, not a theological one.